In what has become a series of posts about supernatural phenomena, here I will add a new instance to the collection from a case that I recently came across. It is a fascinating and virtually untold historical example of precognition, and I think it is worthy of more attention than it has ever before received. This story is ultimately a footnote within a footnote…a story within a story that has already been largely forgotten. That story? The collapse of the St. Francis Dam late in the evening of March 12th, 1928, which killed at least 500 people and was the largest American engineering disaster of the 20th century. The detail I hope to illuminate is a group of Navajo Indians who ultimately did not perish in the flood. The means by which they escaped a horrible death is what is so remarkable and merits being retold.
The collapse of the St. Francis Dam is a fascinating story in and of itself, and I encourage people to check out the documentary about this incident currently playing on Amazon Prime Video. This documentary (“Forgotten Tragedy: The Story of the St. Francis Dam”) is how the event caught my attention in the first place. The building of the St. Francis Dam and the Los Angeles Aqueduct is a story of urbanization run amok, the hubris of mankind, and the failures of a modern society expanding beyond its control.
The Los Angeles Aqueduct, which was one of the foremost feats of human engineering when completed, is the backdrop by which this story takes place. You may be somewhat familiar with the story of the Los Angeles Aqueduct if you have ever seen the 1974 classic film “Chinatown”, in which it is featured prominently. For the aqueduct to be built, water had to be redirected a great distance across the state of California. The source of the water, the Owens River Valley, is on California’s eastern border near Nevada. Los Angeles is on California’s western Pacific coast. This was nothing short of a modern marvel, and would ultimately turn a small desert town into the great metropolis of Los Angeles.
The main engineer of this project, William Mulholland, was a very interesting character in his own right. He was an Irish immigrant who rapidly rose through the ranks of the civil service in the early days of Los Angeles until he ultimately found himself overseeing many great feats of civil engineering as Superintendent of the Los Angeles Water Department. Mulholland is the namesake for the famous LA highway “Mulholland Drive”, and at one point was so highly regarded as a civil engineer that he consulted on the construction of the Panama Canal. His hubris, however, would eventually catch up with him.
The St. Francis Dam was a 200-foot-tall concrete gravity arch dam built by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power between 1924 and 1926. It was designed to serve as a backup water supply reservoir. When full, it contained more than a year’s worth of water for this bustling new metropolis. The dam was quickly constructed (perhaps too quickly), and its site was chosen in part for the cheapness of its land. San Francisquito Canyon, the dam location, was not the first choice. The ideal location was passed over when local farmers banded together to drive up the price of their land. Heaven forbid the city of Los Angeles actually pay a fair price! They instead sought alternative locations, and ultimately settled on San Francisquito Canyon, a cheaper backup location. This was not the only case of a poor decision in the construction process. The height of the dam was raised repeatedly to new and greater heights in order to boost water capacity, and corners were cut in terms of men and materials. For example, they created concrete locally with area materials rather than import a concrete product known to be reliable. The hubris of mankind was on full display.
The Navajo enter this tale when we get to the actual collapse of the dam. On the night of March 12th, 1928, less than two years after construction was completed and just days after it had been filled to full capacity, the St. Francis Dam suddenly and catastrophically collapsed. Several warning signs were ignored in the days leading up the collapse. The warning signs were serious enough that William Mulholland himself had traveled to inspect the leakage problems reported by the main watchman the day prior. Muddy leakage had been seen under the dam, which is a sign that the foundation itself may be in jeopardy. Mulholland dismissed this sign as water mixing with mud in a different way; nothing to see here. As fate would have it, he was wrong. Dead wrong. At 11:57PM and 30 seconds on the night of March 12th, 1928, the dam broke, catastrophically.
A tremendous wall of water reaching a maximum height of over 120 feet raged through the towns in the canyon below, carrying with it the huge chunks of concrete from the failed dam. This monstrous wave was travelling at a brisk 18 miles per hour and carried with it such a huge amount of energy that nothing in its way stood any chance. Everyone in the direct path of the water was killed…most of whom had been sleeping. 25 entire families were wiped out. Other families had only a few survivors. The rare survivors were those who were awakened by the sound of the dam breaking and were smart enough to immediately recognize the urgency of the situation. They were able to scramble up to higher ground to survive, but these were the exceptional cases. Of the 75 workers in the main camp below, only 3 survived in this way. It took a full 6 hours for this wall of water (over 12 billion gallons!) to finally make its way to the Pacific Ocean. By the time it did, more than 500 people had been killed in total. Some estimates were above 1,000 dead, and the truth is that we will never know. Many villagers in the area were not well documented, and many bodies were never recovered.
Among the people who SHOULD have died in this event were a group of Navajo Indians situated near the epicenter of the disaster. Their town was 9 miles due south of the canyon below the dam and would be directly in the path of the deadly wall of water. These Navajo lived on a village owned by silent film star Harry Carey Sr. and they existed basically as a tourist attraction. So, how did these Navajo Indians survive? Was it their tremendous swimming skills? Did their earthen hogan huts float and carry them to safety? No, they survived because they were not there.
So why were these Navajo not present? As it would happen, just days prior to the collapse, the Navajo medicine man had a mystical vision where he “dreamed of an impending and epic disaster”, according to Carey. They had phoned him prior to the event and stated that they were packing up and going to their reservation in Arizona. Their reasoning for leaving was the mystical vision of the medicine man.
This story has become a local legend. The exact number of days ahead of time they left is disputed (some say a month, some say the night before), and also unknown is whether they had witnessed cracks in the dam. Either way, what is not disputed is that these Navajo left directly ahead of the disaster due to the mystical vision of their medicine man. If one of the foremost civil engineers in the world dismissed concerns the day prior to the collapse (cracks in dams are not uncommon), but the Navajo left because of a mystical vision, then something significant is happening here. Remember, these Navajo lived 9 miles away from the dam, and would have had no way to know that they would be exactly in the deadly path of water. Even if we try to use a logical framework to explain this away (they saw cracks), their behavior does not make sense without the mystical vision of the medicine man. Mulholland himself said following the disaster that the St. Francis was the driest dam of its size that he had ever seen. Even with subtle warning signs, no other people were known to have relocated at this time. The watchman who reported the muddy leakage perished in the collapse…he was not concerned enough to relocate, and he was located directly underneath the dam. There were no outward signs of an imminent disaster serious enough to alarm those situated directly under the dam. It was only this tribe of Navajo Indians situated NINE MILES AWAY who were able to sense the imminent disaster in time to relocate. They did so not through physical signs, but through confirmation in a mystical vision of their medicine man at a great distance. Remarkable! This is perhaps the most prominent instance of precognition ever recorded, yet it is just a tiny footnote in a story that has already become a footnote in and of itself.
What powers did the Navajo mystic use to have this vision? Such a topic merits further study. Do you, dear reader, immediately dismiss this story as a lie? A coincidence? I suggest you think again. The tribe took this vision seriously enough that they packed up and left. Sure enough, the disaster was indeed both epic and impending. A great number of Navajo survived who otherwise would have perished, and it was solely because of how seriously they treated this mystical vision. What a truly amazing story!
How could this kind of precognition work? Could catastrophic events leave such a profound impact on space and time that they can be sensed in advance by those in tune with the universe, like ripples in time? We know enough about space and time now, even thru mainstream scientific outlets, to believe that such a thing could be possible. When we have such a concrete example as this (pardon the pun), it supports the idea that precognition could be very real. This anecdote is but one of many. Often, people sense when someone is about to phone them. They dream about an event that has not happened yet, and then the event really does occur. This phenomenon speaks to a different kind of human consciousness, but Western society has long taught us to disregard these things.
As I have mentioned, I personally witnessed telekenesis as a child. I believe in such abilities, and I have concrete reasons to believe. As a society, we always seek to understand everything in rational, scientific terms. With this, we completely lose touch with these other abilities that we inherently possess as humans. As a society, we should study these cases rather than ridicule or disregard them. Often, the next frontiers in science are those that were previously ridiculed until we finally had the means to understand them. I submit for your consideration this remarkable and largely untold historical case of precognition: the surviving Navajo of the St. Francis Dam collapse.
Be mindful, your life may depend upon it.
Flood animation (forgive the incorrect dates, it is an excellent animation of the flood path): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MdB_s6KhwA
Piece of Mindful 
Not so much actual gravitational waves, although I get why you ask that since I said ripples in time. My aim is just to say that we need to be studying these effects seriously.
For example:
This seems like a great place to start.
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There’s gotta be a better place to start than the bems…
In a 2017 follow-up article in Slate magazine on the “Feeling the Future” experiments, Bem is quoted as saying, “I’m all for rigor, but I prefer other people do it. I see its importance—it’s fun for some people—but I don’t have the patience for it.” The article continues: “It’s been hard for him, he said, to move into a field where the data count for so much. “If you looked at all my past experiments, they were always rhetorical devices. I gathered data to show how my point would be made. I used data as a point of persuasion, and I never really worried about, ‘Will this replicate or will this not?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Bem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Bem
…and harry jr.’s description of his movie star father’s pet indians leaving the ranch seems to me to be more about common sense cognition than psi; but I’m no psientist of course…
“Harry: Yeah. It was more than a night before. It was like a month before. They heard that our pop — that we were all going back to the East, because my father was on a personal appearance tour thing.
They said, “If you leave, we want to leave.” My father said, “Why?” And they said, “Because the dam is going to break.” My dad said, our dad said, “Where did you hear that?” And they said the medicine man, when they rode by there — they went up there deer hunting, and when they rode by the front of the face of the dam, old Diné Tubigay they called him, he said that it was very bad and there was a big crack, and predicted it would break.
Cappy: And the water was leaking more.
Harry: The water was leaking out of it, of seeping out of it. I can’t remember how many square feet or yards of water that was, but it drowned almost 600 people.”
https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/signal/newsmaker/sg112005-nm.htm
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I am fine with questions about Bem, only said that this is what he found and that we need to stop dismissing these things outright. I am also well aware of what Carey’s son (not a first-hand source) would later say. This later anecdote does not dispute that the Navajo left at exactly the right time due to a vision by their medicine man. Everyone else saw those same cracks, and none of them left (not even the guy whose job it was to report such things, who died in the collapse). Mulholland said the St. Francis was the driest dam of its size that he had ever seen. The Navajo saw the same cracks as everyone. They also lived a full nine miles away, yet they were the sole group of people to sense this imminent disaster through the vision of the medicine man. He may have seen the crack and this is why he sought a vision in the first place. They were nine miles away, yet they chose to relocate on the basis of the vision. This is undisputed. If you don’t want to take significance from that, I will not try to force you to. It is fine for you to have done this counter-research. I only ask that you try to keep an open mind, because at a certain point you need to realize that there shouldn’t be so many examples for you to have to refute if none of these phenomena were real. I say that as a very smart and logical person who has witnessed psychokenesis first-hand.
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Basically, if I lived 9 miles downhill from a dam that has cracks, I might have some kind of inkling that I would see some water locally if it were to ever break, but I would not be particularly concerned that my life was in danger. Also, there are many different ways for a dam to break. They do not all break catastrophically. For these Navajo at great distance to sense an epic and imminent disaster at precisely the correct moment from 9 miles away is an unbelievable event and if you ascribe a logical explanation for that, you are having to really try hard to do that. How did they know that the break would be catastrophic? How did they know that the wall of water would be deadly (rather than just a little wet) to them nine miles away? Why did they choose to leave at exactly that moment? The cracks had been there from day one. Looking at this logically still does not adequately explain it. Their having seen cracks does not mean that did not leave at precisely the right moment on the basis of a mystical vision that turned out to be true.
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The only fair contention I can imagine counter the idea presented in my posting here is that you believe the vision was a coincidence and that they were just very lucky and the dam collapse was an unrelated happening. If you want to believe that, I cannot stop you. I only ask that you try to keep an open mind, because if you keep digging I think you are going to find a huge volume of things that you will have to try to explain away. This is actually one of the most fundamental points of the post, that I think it would be more appropriate as a society for us to investigate these things instead of try to find any way to write them off. Just about anything can be explained away, even if it is genuine. If the bar is whether or not it can be explained away, no one will ever be able to prove anything.
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I do not assume that there was a vision. carey jr. did not dispute the medicine man vision because he made no mention of a vision; his story just went the medicine man saw cracks and water leaking and then he saw the crazy pale face that owned the place pickup and leave. What Navajo that had common sense wouldn’t think that it would be better to get out of the way seeing as if you live in a canyon it doesn’t matter how far away you are from a 200 foot dam that bursts it only matters how low you are in the the canyon? You shouldn’t need Navajo common sense to figure that out of course; hell I reckon ole diné(if he ever existed) thought dams were silly things anyway.
and as far as keeping an open mind about bem’s landmark paper I probably would if it wasn’t a landmark for all the wrong reasons…
“Bem’s 2011 article “Feeling the Future” has had a profound effect on social psychology. Rather than revealing a supernatural phenomenon, the article demonstrated fundamental flaws in the way social psychologists conducted and reported empirical studies. Seven years later, awareness of bad research practices is widespread and new journal editors are implementing reforms in the evaluation of manuscripts. New statistical tools have been developed to detect practices that produce significant results by capitalizing on chance. It is unlikely that Bem’s article would be accepted for publication these days.”
https://replicationindex.com/2018/01/05/bem-retraction/
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This is a great example for how science and logic can act as a prison for the mind. You prefer to believe that it’s all a pack of lies, because of the man’s son, who was not a party to any of this? OK. If that makes you feel good about disregarding this, then go right ahead. A textbook case for how these phenomena are immediately dismissed today. You will look for any grounds to believe that it is not so. For my being an eyewitness to telekinesis, I would love to hear your theories on how I was wrong, of which I’m sure you’d have many. You think that some Navajo nine miles away foreseeing an imminent epic disaster is not meaningful when one of the foremost civil engineers of all time inspected the dam the prior day and found no concerns! Wow, you must really think those Navajo were some scientific geniuses. Cracks in dams are not inherently problematic, but these Navajo apparently had the engineering know-how to see what everyone else couldn’t (and that the failure would be catastrophic and imminent and would be deadly to them nine miles away). That’s almost as remarkable as the supernatural explanation. Nine miles down river, the Navajo had a better grasp on civil engineering than William Mulholland did up close. Remarkable. And the first-hand account of a mystical vision? A pack of lies, because a second-hand source neglected to mention it in an interview. Those are some wild gymnastics of the mind there to make this all seem perfectly logical. I tried to cede to you that you could assume the mystical vision was a mere coincidence, but you are more far gone than that.
And I have no attachment to Bem, so it is meaningless to me that you are seeking so much to undermine him. My point was that these phenomena should be studied more seriously rather than disregarded, so whether or not Bem is legitimate is really irrelevant. We could play the game where I pull case after case, anecdote after anecdote, but you would just do likewise with each of those. Best of luck to you. You have more than made your point. I hear you, you don’t believe it. I only ask that you try to stop and consider whether your first instinct with each of these things should be to find any possible grounds for you to not believe it. Right now, your approach is to seek to find any “rational” explanation before you will even consider one beyond the realm of current scientific explanation. This is a prison for your mind. If you personally witnessed something supernatural, from the sound of it you wouldn’t even trust your own eyes. That is scary. Anyway, no need to let this blow up. You have made your point and I have made mine. It sounds like you are right that Bem is not a good starting point, but my argument had never been about Bem anyway.
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I’m not much of a psience guy seeing as I don’t believe in gravity, evolution, or anything that has to do with particles and I consider logic merely to be the art of determining if one thing necessarily follows from another.
Here’s wittegenstein’s nephew explaining the particle hustle…
Butwhatever, did diné leave behind a first hand account of his vision before he hopped on the train? If so, please cite it. I did find another second hand account from jr’s mum. I lend more credence to her account cause she wasn’t a child or academic of course…
“”Harry Carey, Jr., Dobe as everyone called him, had told us days earlier the same story we had heard from others — the story that, only days before the collapse, some of the Navajos from the trading post had ridden on horseback to get a look at the damn and the huge reservoir it had created. The story tell of how they returned to the trading post and told the others about a premonition — a premonition that the dam would soon collapse and it would wipe out everything in the San Fransquito Canyon. They decided as a group, Dobe had told us, that they were going to leave the canyon for good, which they did.
“Dobe says that that happened, but I don’t think it ever did,” Mrs. Carey told us. She had a different explanation for why there were no Navajos present that night. She remembers clearly that the Navajos who worked the trading post on Sunday were on a train heading back to Arizona when the damn collapsed on Monday night. In fact, she had phoned the foreman at the trading post on Monday, right before he was to take them to the Santa Fe Station in Los Angeles.
“A new load of Navajos were coming in,” Mrs. Carey told us. “You see, every six months we used to get a bunch of Navajos in to work the ranch and the wild west show and the whole bit. And he had put them on the train and was to pick up a new load … the following morning. Of course, he was killed. It was all straightened out. They got it all straightened out. But there weren’t any Navajos killed. It was just the luckiest day.”
Who do you believe? You can choose between a seven-year-old boy or his mother.”
https://ehpboosters.wordpress.com/a-1980-conversation-with-olive-carey-widow-of-harry-carey-sr/
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You’re all over the place at this point, and even contradicting yourself and moving onto the opinions of a third-hand source. Ridiculous. You contradict yourself here:
Recall, above you claimed that Carey Jr. (Dobe) was who refuted the idea of a premonition, so I’m very confused what you think you are saying here. Again, even if they inspected the dam, it was their premonition which guided their actions, and turned out to be correct!!
Why you mention the wife is puzzling. She openly states that she is just giving her own opinion:
Again, it doesn’t matter if they inspected the dam. This is just proof that they did have such a premonition, and wanted to look over the dam as part of this. It further supports the idea that they left due to a premonition, and even Carey Jr. believed this to be the case. But for some reason you want us to consider the personal opinion of the wife, who may have simply been a skeptic and was not directly involved with any of this? Sheesh, man. Just quit with this.
I have no idea what value you think it is to this to mention your lack of belief in gravity or particles. I consider this particular thread closed, because this is going nowhere and taking up too much space. Thank you for honoring this request.
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Smj, you have made your point, you do not like Bem, and there are are many different versions of the Harry Carey Navajo story. I have made my point that you may very well be right about Bem (although that is ultimately irrelevant to my point), and that I don’t believe that any of the various Navajo stories undercut the main point of the article, which is that their escaping death is an interesting and possibly precognitive event. Please refrain from further tangents or beating of the dead horse. There are plenty of other comments going on here, and this conversation has run its course. I asked twice and you responded twice. Don’t push it.
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Take the last word if you want, but it will be the last.
Edit: You have been free to openly disagree with me throughout here, but it has gotten to the point of tangents and your repeating yourself. I have not been unfair to you, and you are truly free to take the last word here.
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K
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I don’t see my last post. You seem to be responding to it though. What’s up?
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Well, I guess I’ll go ahead and try to post for the third time my last word that you have so graciously permitted…
Sorry for not honoring your request and whatnot but I’m enjoying this thread so I’ll narrow my focus.
I have not contradicted myself cause I have provided no testimony of course. I just looked for collaboration for the Navajo shaman’s vision that you seem to insist on believing. Junior’s first quote came from an interview with some fella named Leon the other was third hand(without citation) by some fella named don. I cannot find on the interwebs where junior mentioned a premonition to don. It seems to me that don was just providing context(I learned a lifetime ago when I was psilly enough to be an attorney that recollections are not as reliable as you seem to think)for his interrogation of junior’s mum. So maybe don is full of it or maybe junior is full of it or maybe junior’s mum is full of it. Who knows; do you? But you seem to know for sure that some sideshow carnival Indian had a vision. But you are a self proclaimed(many times over)smart guy so maybe we can cut to the chase. What is your best evidence that the shaman had a vision? What testimony are you relying on? Is that testimony anymore reliable than the wife of the movie star/native peoples exploiter herself? Did they claim to call the foreman to check on when their next biannual delivery of Wild West show injuns would be in?
And I’m sorry for confusing you. I only mentioned my disbelief in psience because the first sentence in your previous psichoanalyitical post about yours truly you said: “This is a great example for how science and logic can act as a prison for the mind.”. I thought that your statement was ironic seeing as I don’t believe in psiency stuff. I reckoned any self proclaimed smart guy would appreciate my appreciation of some damned good irony.
And this brings me to bem and his psilly paper. I pointed out to you that it is infamous because of his shoddy method. Then you dismissed his paper that you brought up all the sudden cause it didn’t matter cause we got a vision from a sideshow shaman. If you have some other exemplars of time reversed psi stuff papers please provide some links. I’ll take a look.
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There is another celebrated case of precognition and survival from 2000 years ago, the “Flight to Pella.”
During the time when the Roman army besieged Jerusalem in A.D. 70 to suppress a Jewish rebellion, there was a brief cessation of hostilities. In that moment, because of a warning in a vision, the Christian community of the city departed and went north to the town of Pella. The young church survived while all their countrymen in Jerusalem were slaughtered.
Jews never forgave the Christians for their miraculous deliverance, especially inasmuch as it suggested that God favored the upstart community rather than the old-line sects of Judaism. It was after the Flight to Pella that the animosity of Jews against Christians became so white-hot, leading to the following two millennia of antagonism. Some of what is studied in Truther circles goes back to this hatred,
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
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Thanks, Maarten! I had never heard of this before. This is why I love POM…always new and fascinating information to be found.
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Navajo Nation-Mistical Experience-Peyote.
Classic hallucinogens and mystical experiences: Peyote, Ayahuasca, going a bit on a limb even DMT.
Magic Mushrooms open doors to new realms or so they say. Personally, never tried them or any drug for that matter.
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Yeah…looks around nervously…me neither…
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Yeah, and speaking of being mindful, none like the Japanese. A great culture that I’ve become to know and respect. There s a lot to learn from them, specially if you are a Westerner…They are not perfect but wow! what a culture. Good article, by the way. Yes, LA is dessert-ish. Dry-heat hits you differently than say, Miami’s or the Tropics’ heat. In LA, there is a monument, a fountain as a Memorial dedicated to W. Mulholland and the Aqueduct on the intersection of Los Feliz and Riverside Aves.
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Only appropriate that they’d make Mulholland’s memorial a fountain.
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Do not leave out (it was mentioned in the post as well) the Super-Mega-Hyper world famous scenic serpentine Mulholland Drive.
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Yessir. Also the name of a film by David Lynch. Mulholland Drive as a film is strange even by the standard of extreme strangeness set by Lynch’s work. Never had the pleasure of driving the road myself.
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If you sense a dam break just tie your hands behind your back.
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https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1327025 “I think we live in an industrial dimensional reality where we’re programmed to believe what we’re told. We’re programmed to believe them. We’re programmed to believe what that ruling class wants us to believe”. John Trudell.
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Terrific post, Fauxlex. I’m convinced there’s a lot more documented evidence of supernatural phenomena than we are led to believe. Our own CIA, like their pals the Nazis before them, have spent an awful lot of time, money and resources investigating and exploring the supernatural. Logic and scientific materialism is useful for some practical purposes… and also useful, I think, in keeping people from accessing their own inner power if they are conditioned as we have been to believe materialism is all there is.
Russell Targ, who worked as a researcher for the Stanford Research Group and is therefore a spook or a spook employee, has presented a lot of fascinated information about Stanford’s research into remote viewing. It’s worth checking out.
In my college Metaphysics class, we watched a video about Einstein’s concept of space time. Not being much of a scientist, I’d never thought much about the notion that what an alien on Mars would consider “now” is our “two (or four, or whatever it was) years ago.” It occurred to me that if the universe is infinite, somewhere out there, “now” would have to be the exact moment of the Big Bang, and somewhere else, “now” is a million years before the Big Bang. Would the more scientific minds here agree with that? Our everyday understanding of time certainly seems to be extremely subjective and myopic.
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Oh, I don’t think I made this clear. To my mind, the concepts of remote viewing, space-time and precognition are linked. If we can remote-view (project our consciousness to another place, as Stanford research suggest we can), we should be able to project our consciousness to other planets–planets which, according to mainstream science, exist in a “now” that is ahead of or behind our “now.” So consciousness can project into different points in time. To me, this suggests strong scientific evidence for precognition. Yes?
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I followed you, and completely agree on the remote viewing/precognition connection.
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Pineal gland Faux. These folks were in tune to the truth. Truth that the Vatican wanted for themselves & wipe out the ‘savages’ oral history.
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It takes light 22 minutes to get to Mars, but your point is all the same. It is fascinating to think only in terms of the present moment…even a galaxy at the other end of the universe billions of light-years away should be able to experience the same “now” as us. Is the flow of time only an illusion? Even more interesting is the extent to which causation may simply be an illusion, or a local tendency of the universe…where effect precedes cause in other places. The research I pointed to elsewhere in the comments showed that there is a measurable effect found by studying for a test after the test is taken. So wild.
Existence is so mysterious and so far beyond our understanding that it is really just something to marvel at. I do not think that modern science would strongly argue against the idea that it is possible to glimpse moments of time in the future. It is likely that we all do this, or are capable of doing it, but the mystics are just the ones among us who are best practiced and able to put these visions into context. Thanks Scott, I really enjoyed your comment. I am not a physicist by any means, but these are such interesting things to ponder. I hope that one day science develops to the point of being able to better explain these phenomena.
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By the way, my Metaphysics prof was a nice guy who had a very conventional view of the world. He enjoyed talking about metaphysical concepts, but firmly believed in the version of reality presented to us by mainstream propaganda. When I made a passionate argument in class in favor of psychic abilities, my professor actually said that if there were solid evidence of human psychic abilities, it would be all over the news! I was so shocked at his naivete I literally couldn’t respond. I just stared at him in honest-to-God amazement and laughed.
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The sad thing is that we are not just up against run-of-the-mill stupidity. We are up against a daily propaganda so deep in its roots that it ensnares even the well-educated into having such obviously self-defeating views as your professor’s example shows. We will always be a very lonely minority.
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I can’t begin to understand how the Navajos knew to flee, but in terms of space time, Electric Universe Theory, which I have dabbled in, states that one side of our galaxy is impacted by the other, and within seconds over a space and time unfathomable by the standard of speed of light. A problem with the advancement of the theory is Wallace Thornhill (“Wal”), perhaps the most boring speaker who ever walked on a stage. He could drive me to pound nails in my forehead, one at a time, pound, pound,pound. He is their leading spokesperson. Please, kill me!
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Aren’t precognitive dreams (information from the subconscious) common? Is that “off the table,” or what? Am I missing something?
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Agreed, I think this is the one precognitive ability nearly everyone is capable of. It may also be the source of the medicine man’s “vision”. Imagine having persistent dreams of an imminent epic disaster, then upon taking a hunting trip up river in your canyon noticing the cracks in the brand new dam. This likely is how the Navajo put two and two together and left.
This site has a good rundown:
https://corrosion-doctors.org/Dreaming%20is%20Personal/Precognitive.htm
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Steve, to me it’s like all the people who concede that the media can’t be trusted, but in reality pretty much believe whatever foolishness the media tells them to believe. I have known quiteva few people who profess at least open mindedness to precognitive dreams and other such phenomena, but if asked to accept specific instances, they reflexively brush such things away with “logical” explanations.
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It’s a fine line to walk, because we do have to consider if the logical explanation really is the true one for each individual case, but I think it’s incredibly short-sighted to believe that there always MUST be a logical explanation that is better than precognition as an explanation.
If you approach it this way, you are going to end up following some pretty ridiculous strings of logic for an explanation.
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Isn’t fear of the unconscious part of our conditioning? Magic, myth, dreams are taboo. Our separation (imagined or real) from this part of ourselves defines part of what makes us “modern,” or at least no longer perceived to be “primitive.” What could be worse than that (being considered a primitive man)?
We explore all sorts of arcane topics, including space, but have really never taken study of the human psyche all that seriously — except for the few “professionals” in the business for fun and profit. Just think of how much money is spent on climate change compared to study of dreams, and the unconscious. Even though it’s been around a long time it’s just not a very popular area of study.
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My view may be overly simplistic for what you’re getting at Steve, but I’m inclined to think it’s not a popular area of study–that it’s not part of our “conditioning”–because it empowers individuals (or rather taps into their innate power) in a way that has nothing to do with money or class or social status. If anything could unplug the masses from groupthink and propaganda, it would be access to the awesome potential within their own minds and bodies. What ruling elite would want their subjects fucking around with that shit?
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What I find particularly interesting about these kinds of phenomena are that both science and reason can act as mental prisons. In the debate I had above, the commenter was adamant that they were not a follower of science, but they clearly were trapped in the same kind of prison with reason. They imagined that unless I could prove this case in a court of law, it was not worthy of our consideration. In the same way, I think science fails because we can imagine they test 5,000 subjects and only two subjects display the ability to do this kind of phenomena. The scientific study would probably conclude that they had seen too small of an effect to declare the phenomena real. This might be the scientific viewpoint, but anyone who is really paying attention would just be amazed that there were actually two people who could do it. The question is really whether those two people were really genuinely doing this. Science rarely studies it in the first place, and when they do they tend to look for any possible counter explanation when they witness something that could be legitimate. In the same vein, these are not the types of cases that you could ever prove in a court of law. Even if we had interviewed the Navajo Medicine Man, his testimony would have likely been deemed unreliable. Short of having his brain hooked up to an imager during the vision itself, I don’t see how you could ever prove these types of cases in a court of law (even then, they would still say “coincidence”). There would always be deemed to be a Reasonable Doubt. The fundamental question is whether those who are capable of these kinds of phenomena are legitimately capable of them or not. Rare (or common) as the abilities might be. Even just one compelling case should be considered proof enough, but most people are incapable of seeing it this way.
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Bad sentence. I am thinking that fear is/was/will be conditioned — to keep us from understanding ourselves and our real potential.
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From a less paranoid or cynical perspective, I think there are valid reasons for individuals to shy away or cut themselves off completely from such potentialities. If you believe we’re put through this material realm for a purpose, and that the purpose has something to do with mastering it in one way or another, the ability to jump around space-time whenever you feel like it, or read people’s minds, astral project, move objects telekinetically, etc., could be a distraction from whatever the hell it is you’re supposed to be doing here, maybe.
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I suppose willful ignorance keeps man believing falsely that he/she is master of the universe — or at least one’s own “destiny.” Not understanding (or wanting to admit) that nature always bats last.
ps. Google “destiny” and try to find a definition. I gave up after page 12… Waaay lost.
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Not sure why psychic experiences arn’t talked about hardly at all in our society, surely people must have them however rare. Have had quite a few psychic experiences of things that happen quite soon a few dreams more awake. Most of us have probably experienced the phone thing, a knowing of who was calling as phone rang or before.
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https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/hopi-prophecy-and-end-fourth-world-part-1-002280
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Seems that you may be over looking the obvious? They were tipped off perhaps? Powerful Hollywood actor who has PET Indians as a tourist attraction. Smells bad
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Occam’s Razor ought to be in use here.
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I’m not a fan of Occam’s Razor, because all it says is that the simplest explanation is USUALLY the best. Often, we’re dealing with inherently complex and unusual issues. Occam’s Razor is the wrong test to apply. To Watcher’s comment, tipped off? By all accounts the breaking of the dam was a sudden and completely unexpected happening. To say they were tipped off implies all kinds of things, foremost being that the dam failure was somehow done intentionally at a specific moment. It also doesn’t jibe with the given account of Carey Jr. or Mulholland. It broke out of the blue, and I can’t think of anything supporting the idea that it would have been possible for anyone involved to “tip off” anyone else. The main engineers were in denial. Nobody could have known for sure that such a thing would happen imminently.
That said, there are lots of ways you could look at it, and the point of the post was more just that it’s a fascinating case of an account of a premonition saving lives because it turned out to be true. They could have just as easily left because of the premonition and the dam never broke. The two events happening in tandem COULD have been a coincidence. It’s just one hell of a story, and if you take the story on the merits, it would seem that this vision really did glimpse an aspect of what was to come.
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More specifically, we’d have to imagine Mulholland knew, told Carey, who told his Navajo…but Mulholland DIDN’T tell the watchman directly under the dam or warn anyone else? I am not so sure that’s the obvious explanation. Specifically, why would Carey have warned his Navajo if Mulholland didn’t warn anybody else (and they were in some kind of secret cahoots with each other where Mulholland didn’t warn others directly facing death)? And that is assuming some kind of shady connection between Mulholland and Carey, which I know no evidence of. Or some kind of intermediate connection between Mulholland and Carey, but it still doesn’t follow that these guys would be secretly warning each other only, yet the Navajo somehow became privy to this.
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I agree there is never an always or never, and Occam so states – “entities should not be multiplied without necessity.” As a general rule, the simplest explanation is most often the closest to truth. The simplest explanation here would be that everyone knew the dam was leaking, and that the Navajos had the least faith in engineering, and so vamoosed. Everyone else, having great faith in authority figures and the skills and assurances of engineers, hung around.
Something similar happened in 1969 with Apollo 11, where a magazine survey found two groups more likely than others to think it was a hoax … blacks, and gays. I think the reason is obvious, if this is true: These groups would be least integrated into proper society, and so not subject to groupthink.
I can find no verification of that magazine survey, so my point is broader: Unassimilated people are less likely to be subject to group pressures and are more able to think independently.
Anyway, attributing the Navajo behavior to magical intuition is a far step, beckoning Sagan’s restatement of LaPlace’s Principle: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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This was what I considered to be at least a fair counter idea (a coincidence), and I like the connection to the Navajo having the least faith in authority figures. However, we’re still left with the idea that these Navajo were nine miles away and left at almost precisely the right time. As coincidences would go, it’s one heck of a coincidence that they “called it”, so to speak. I also don’t think it’s fair as others have here to have dismissed the premonition as just a tall tale. All the particulars in the Carey family repeated this detail. There WAS a premonition. I think if you pair the two ideas, you are still left with something remarkable. The Navajo had no faith in authority or modern civil engineering, but their doubts were strengthened by a premonition, mystical vision. It is what made them so certain they should immediately leave when they saw the state of the dam. It fit with the premonitions they had of imminent disaster. The best quasi-scientific studies showed that the dreaming mind may be capable of pulling from past and future, and the author of this firmly believed that around 10% of dream images were pulling from future events. If the Navajo were having recurrent visions of imminent disaster, seeing the dam would have been the thing that locked it into place. There is still a place for the mystical in all this, even with the idea that they didn’t have faith in the dam. Just food for thought. For mindfulness.
As for extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence, I tend to agree…but be careful to not let this become a cage for the mind. I have witnessed telekinesis to a level that I can say with extreme confidence it was genuine. I witnessed such extraordinary evidence. So a case like this need not completely seek to toss out any mystical connection. It can be a little bit of both.
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Basically, I just think that it is interesting that even open-minded people such as those in our community would be far more willing to accept a long-shot idea if we can ascribe reason/logic to it before they would consider a long-shot idea that goes even slightly into the mystical realm.
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When I was a kid, my brother and I were big baseball fans (Milwaukee Braves, yes, “Milwaukee”), and spotted a book that had photos and stories about baseball and all of the stadiums that the teams played in. But we could not afford it.
One day after school we came home, and Mom was gone. Somehow I knew, with nothing being said, that she had purchased the book for us and was bringing it home to surprise us. She did.
For me, telekinesis-wise, for my entire life, that’s it.
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That’s actually an awesome story!!
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SMJ, yep, I’m 100 percent sure I know what all the definitions of protest are. Are you sure you understand what it means in the context of the popular quote I’m referencing? Never mind, sorry I asked, it’s none of my business and I’ve no reason to care. Have a good night.
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Sleep tight, gertrude.
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The lady doth go on protesting. Meanwhile, it seems Fauxlex and everyone else has moved on. Turn the lights off and lock the door when you leave, SMJ.
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I linked to it elsewhere in the comments, but I wouldn’t expect you to have taken that seriously. You’re truly an odd duck SMJ, because as anti-science as you are, you still seem stuck in the same trap with logic/reason by trying to turn this case into a court of law. And I have a ton of respect for logic and reason (remember SMJ, I am a very very smart person…I know you like it when I say so). I’m sure my eyewitness account of telekinesis would have gone down in flames in a court of law because of a fancy lawyer such as yourself. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. This is how logic and reason can also be a trap…if you can think of ANY logical explanation (even a poor one), you will grapple onto it over a strong case that something psi-related occurred. Trust me, I was feeling the irony long before you were, Mr. “I hate science so much that I won’t even spell it right, yet I can’t let my mind even begin to consider anything in the psi realm”. If that is your real name.
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You are trying to build some kind of relevance into an irrelevant anecdote by the wife, who was at least two levels removed from first-hand, and admits going in that she’s just giving a skeptical opinion, and was 80+ years old in that interview. YYYYYIKES. That there might have been a different Navajo planning to come on a train as replacement is completely irrelevant to the cause of the Navajo who were leaving, and I can’t believe I have to point that out. It was the 1920’s, perhaps they planned to warn their comrades when they got back to not come and replace them? But you go ahead and keep pinning some imaginary case on that old wife of his picking at her 60 year old memories. Rock solid stuff there. You’re bumming me out at this point, because you reek of desperation and your arguments are increasingly flimsy, repetitive, and irrelevant. My enormously large intellect (have I mentioned this before?) is completely bored of you. But you go ahead and keep up the desperation until I start marking these long-winded and repetitive comments as the spam that they are. You are literally just pasting the same quotes as before…it’s spam.
BTW, I have no idea why you’re obsessed with railing on Bem. Almost like you have an agenda? He found something, and psi phenomena is inherently hard to study through the scientific method. Even one legitimate case should be proof enough…whether or not we can repeat the same thing with Joe Schmo is pretty irrelevant. I have already argued why science is so bad at studying psi items. You really are spam at this point, just repeating yourself over and over and over without anything to add.
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When we strip out all your irrelevance and tangents, we are left with the fact that you have said absolutely nothing that conflicts the idea that the Navajo left in part on the basis of a premonition that ultimately came true. I am perfectly fine with people being open to the idea that those two events may have been a coincidence. You, however, have tried to make baseless claims that there was no premonition in the first place. You have done absolutely nothing to support that position. You may have tried to turn that around on me like I don’t have a first-hand witness, but the source of the local Legend clearly is something (and your old lady actually supports me on that one if we’re taking her word as gold). You prefer to call it a pack of lies on literally zero grounds, and that’s fine with me, but quit going on and on already. Not that I am particularly afraid of anything you are saying. At this point, it just seems like you are trying to bury the fact that every tangent and every irrelevant point you tried to make was shown to be a tangent or irrelevant. But please, I am sure you are going to keep on making irrelevant or tangential points. You are an approved commenter, but at this point I will pay you little attention and mark you as spam if you go on repeating yourself. You have already gone way beyond the budget of everyone’s attention that you have showed yourself to be worthy of.
Future comments will be marked as spam if they are spam. You’ve been given a crazy amount of latitude here. If you actually have anything worthwhile to add, go ahead. Otherwise, move along.
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Alas! I’m not Gertrude anymore.
Oh, what a noble mind is here o’erthrown!
The courtier’s, soldier’s, scholar’s eye, tongue, sword,
Th’ expectation and rose of the fair state,
The glass of fashion and the mold of form,
Th’ observed of all observers, quite, quite down!
Peace out, ima go climb a tree.
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https://www.survivalinternational.org/news/1278
These tribesmen survived the 2004 tsunami, but not the thieving “christian settlers.”
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Can we have less of Fauxlex and their enormously large intellect?
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I’ve tried banging my head against a wall. I’ll let you know.
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By the way, I was just poking at SMJ. My ego isn’t actually Mathis-sized.
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That’s strange. I don’t see any evidence that we’ve had any sort of dialogue in this thread. Where were you poking at me?
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I gave them what they asked for…less of me claiming to be smart. So sorry.
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