There’s quite a bit of debate about the Wisconsin and Indiana legislative flights to prevent votes on eerily similar right-wing bills. The debate centers around democratic processes.
One argument is that when this is done once, it can be done again – that is, what the Wisconsin Democrats are doing, the Wisconsin Republicans will do next time around. The other assumes that voters know what they are voting on – that there are no surprises in all of this, and that Wisconsin Democrats who have left the state should accept the will of the people.
These assume we are in a functioning democracy. Not hardly. I mentioned two defects in our system at 4&20 yesterday, and Polish Wolf added a third.
1: I said that because of winner-take-all voting, third parties are frozen out. Since reform is usually initiated outside the two parties, winner-take-all voting prevents reform. That’s why historically most of our “reforms”, good (civil rights, for instance) and bad (prohibition?) came from outside the two parties.
2. Our system of private campaign finance is an invitation to corruption. There’s no debate about that – we revel in our corruption. Citizens United is perhaps the most ludicrous and boldfaced insult to thinking people since Dredd Scott. Because of private finance, now even worse due to C/U, the political system is naturally ceded to moneyed interests. There’s a simple reason for this: They have more money. Campaigns, far from being referendums, are diversions. Real issues are rarely discussed.
3. Unrelated to Wisconsin/Indiana, Polish Wolf noted that the U.S. Senate is not a representative body. It was never intended to be – Senators were appointed under the constitution, and two were given each state no matter population. This, coupled with filibuster rule of questionable constitutionality, theoretically allows for 11.3% of the population to thwart majority rule. The Constitution is a flawed document in many ways. This is but one.
Since this is not functioning representative government, methods available for fighting wealth are limited, and usually must be exerted outside on the steps of court houses and lobbies of state capitol buildings. Those who have reveled in the filibuster rule of the last four years are now upset that the legislators in those two states fled, but what is that if not a form of filibuster? The game is rigged anyway, so play dirty.
There’s a reason for that. There’s some bad stuff in that bill even aside from the union-busting. It cannot stand much disinfecting light, and needs to be passed quickly. Walker is trying to bludgeon it through because he knows that if there is debate, he loses.
There is a provision (16.896) to allow Walker to sell of public assets to his cronies. He wants to sell public power plants to private interests without competitive bidding or consultation. Once that is done, how do we get those assets back? Once the gouging starts, like California in the Enron days, how do we get our money back? Do we wait two years for another Koch-money election?
I believe in representative government. I wish we some of it. But this is a fake republic/democracy/whatever, and so the cries that we now hear from the moneyed interests about the need for legal procedures are an insult. How dare they pretend that they too believe in representative government!
Democrats in Wisconsin and Indiana have grown a set, developed some spine. Democrats always let us down, but the thing that sustains them right now are the throngs of people occupying the buildings in those state capitals. They need us now, or they will fold.
That is democracy at work. As in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and Bahrain, it ain’t pretty. Whatever it is that we have here (plutocracy), it pretends to be democracy only when democracy serves money.
Piece of Mindful 
You got that right. That’s exactly where we’re at. To me, it’s simply unbelievable what the dirty bastards in Wis. are attempting to do. But in a way, it’s also encouraging. They WAY overreached, and that might be the only thing that contributes to their eventual downfall. They went full Latin America on us all at once. It’s a HUGE gamble. They aren’t even trying to hide it any more. The only thing left to do is bring in Blackwater to provide “security”. Which they probably will! It MUST be legal to protect one’s assets, right? This is simply a coup, pure and simple.
But is it? Will it actually BE simple? I’m not so sure. We are a pretty diverse country, and diversity will be out strength. I think that the American people still have a few things left in their bag of tricks. And they’re showing that they have the courage to use them! These corporate fascist bastards have perfected these techniques in Latin America for the last sixty years. It was only a matter of time before they used them on this countyry! (I was going to say “used them on their on people”, but they are NOT part of us!)
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Remember that bag of tricks I told you about? We are a GODDAMNED good diverse people! It’s kick nazi ass time!
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/breakinggov-scott-walker-punked-blogg#comments
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Hey they coined a new term.
“Fleebaggers”, cut and run Democrats.
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Oh Ingrid, you’re STILL trying to be relevant! Sad, so sad. That must hurt a lot. I feel you pain……AND CAN’T BUT LAFF! Sorry. I must cut and run now! BTW, I didn’t run from Nam, dufus. Did you? DD 214 please, or STFU!
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I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on the substantive underlying issues.
What about the refusal to allow debate on the bill?
What’s your position on giving the governor unrestrained power to sell off state assets to anyone he chooses without competitive bidding?
What about his attack on collective bargaining rights without once during his campaigning saying that he intended to do that?
How about his secret backing by the Koch Brothers, now public?
What about his threat to start firing workers until the Senators come back?
Please don’t hit me with a link or YouTube. I want your own thoughts.
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1. Have Dem majorities ever stifled debate when they held a majority?
3. In accordance I won’t link. Quote. ” On August 30, the Journal Sentinel ran an article on plans by Walker and Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, his Democratic opponent, to save the state money by revamping health insurance plans for public employees. The reporter spoke to Ryan Murray, a top policy adviser for the Walker campaign, who explained the candidate’s plan. “The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process,” Murray said.”
2. So if true, do any other Gov’s participate in this practice? Or just Gov’s under the crosshairs?
4. I’ve listened to snipits-nothing controversial. Again, can Dem Gov’s talk to Soros? Union Leaders?
5. Reagan fired traffic controllers. If I had kids in the system I’d want them fired.
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Not an answer. The question you must answer is should matter so great importance be subject to debate, and why he fears such a debate. (Hint: 74% of the WI public now backs the union.)
The bill strips them of all collective bargaining power except on wages, and not just health care. Since the union has already conceded health care matters, and he continues to fight, he obviously has other things in mind.
Again, not an answer. No, the sell of public assets is not vested in one person, as we don’t have dictators, by the way.
Again, not an answer. Should individuals with a lot of money be allowed to secretly finance campaigns? Your answer would apply to both Koch and Soros.
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At last, substance! Are you a self-loathing laborer afraid of our having a middle class? Because that is what unions gave us – our middle class.
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that is what unions gave us – our middle class.
Is anything earned in your world, or is everything given?
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Unions were never given, sir. Frank Little was hung form a railroad bridge in Butte as a warning to others. Thousands died, tens of thousands more beaten up. Before Blackwater, there were Pinkerton’s. The National Guard fired machine guns into a labor encampment at Ludlow.
Rights are not given us, but rather taken by force.
Your comment is inane.
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I was wondering about the notion that unions gave us a middle class.
Some places had weak union influence and built a middle class: Japan, current China. Some places had strong unions and didn’t generate the wealth to raise the standard of living much above the initial state.
It seems wealth building comes first, then the unions can jump in front of the parade.
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Do you know the work ethic in Japan? Jobs are sacred, and people work for the same company for life. Executives are not a privileged class. Here it’s always been a fight – can’t even get a decent minimum wage.
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Do you know the work ethic in Japan?
Good breeding.
Japan controls their border, controls immigration, makes explicit and implicit attempts to maintain a racial/ethnic homogeneous society. Such makes it easier to have the cooperation and trust that lends itself to a sharing of the wealth and a sharing of middle class society. It seems an excellent idea to foster the goals of a union without having a union with its contentiousness and shoe leather costs.
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Nice asspull.
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Please. I don’t know if you are playing dumb or if you just don’t get it.
We organize ourselves into communities with borders and entrance requirements. You like to think there is some universality of mankind.
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No Mark, they are the correct answers. I can go back and find where union benefits and perks were passed with Dem majorities without debate. Same goes for sweetheart deals with state government contracts. Hell fire, how many times was closure used in the US Senate (no debate) in Obama’s first two years. Health Care-anyone?
You can’t just pick and choose when you side gets dinged.
The 74% poll in WI is bogus- I read about it yesterday.
” Should individuals with a lot of money be allowed to secretly finance campaigns?” Damn right, especially when individuals (with money) come calling representing unions.
WI teachers salaries and perks are over 100K-bout three times the average wage in Milwaukee. 100k for 9 mos is upper class, not middle in that city.
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By all means, go back and find those things. Corporations give 15-25 times more money to campaigns than unions. Public employee unions are about all that is left, which is why the coordinated attack.
I do not pick and choose, as I am not on any side, but rather am an outsider looking in. I believe in unions because I believe in ordinary people – not that they are anything other than ordinary humans, but reject this notion that the natural accretion to wealth is a reflection of anything more than luck of birth an luck of the draw. I have seen what talented people do when they are in charge – they give us wars, bubbles and busts, depressions and recessions, criminal conspiracies … these are not talented people. Being ordinary should not mean that you should not have a decent wage, good schools, a pension and health care.
The polling – it’s Fox news versus the world. As protesters keep reminding you, Fox lies. 24-7.
And again, I ask that you look over Opensecrets.org – you’re hallucinating, and I know because you come back here time and again with new Fox News Data, that you haven’t spent time there. Unions are hardly in the game anymore.
Keep in mind, I wish they were. I wish they had power. I wish they could win these battles. But I ask again, and you don’t answer – why can they not even get EFCA introduced? You are not even a good Randian – she says you learn by embracing contradiction, not hiding form it.
I don’t know what Fox says about WI teacher salaries, but I doubt your numbers are right. Frankly, you’re full of foxshit.
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