Here’s a good article by Michael Neumann breaking down the various legalities involved in the Georgia conflict, and in general exonerating most Russian activities.
This passage caught my eye:
There is also a relationship between war as an immorally disproportionate response, or starting war for the wrong reasons, and all its consequences. When you start a war for the wrong reasons, you are responsible for all that follows, even the other side’s atrocities. Though the other side is to blame for its crimes, so are you. You don’t even have the right to kill in self-defense. If you are wrong to start a war, you don’t suddenly fall into the right just because, contrary to your expectations, it’s you, not the other guy, who has to defend himself.
The U.S., its sycophants and apologists, often scorn the Iraqis for various behaviors in the wake of the March 2003 invasion – looting and suicide bombings and kidnappings. Here’s the bottom line – the invasion was illegal and the U.S. was not defending itself when it invaded. It is therefore responsible for everything that followed – everything. That means all of the destruction of property, all of the hundreds of thousands of deaths, all of the refugees. All of it falls on Bush’s shoulders. How much more damage can one man do?
And Georgia, likewise, is responsbile for all that happened in South Ossetia .
Piece of Mindful 
Bush may deserve some credit too for provoking, or misleading, Georgia. U.S. weapons, and Israeli and U.S. military advisors, were added to the mix before Georgia made its move.
LikeLike
I have read that – the U.S. instigated the move and the Georgians thought that U.S. woudl back them up. This whole thing has been very well played by the Ruskies.
LikeLike
Sooooo…the first Iraq War was justified because Saddam invaded Kuwait? Huh! Who knew you were for that war?
LikeLike
I also note, the first time in your life you’re actually witnessing a real live war to prop up oil prices, you don’t even mention the WORD oil.
Christ, everything ever said about leftist “thinking” is true.
LikeLike
You’re way off. You need to read other things written here. I’m fully aware of the atrocities of 1991, the sanctions from 1990 to 2003, and devastation of the war, and the fight now for US oil companies to take control of Iraq’s oil.
Lighten up.
LikeLike
How am I way off? You just said the war was Georgia’s fault and the Sov…er, Russians were in the clear. This says “First Gulf War Tokarski Seal of Approval!”.
The Russians DID organize attacks from Ossetia into Georgia proper, and then when Georgia responded, the Soviets (who have precisely zero readiness on tank units) suddenly had a complete tank division with supplies and elite troops ready? I respectfully posit that Neumann is a stinking tool. Yes, I read his war piece- coooool. It’s nice to know your side drops that anti-war bullshit the billionth of a second it puts you on the side of someone in the Bush administration.
Russian armored divisions not located in Western Russia (where their only real supply chain is located) take six months of assiduous preparation to ready for combat. To do it without being seen by satellites takes about eight months. Which means this whole thing was planned in advance, in the Kremlin, right about the time the Futures Market was predicting the oil bubble was nearing the end due to new US and world production schedules and US restrictions in usage were predicted to start eating away at oil prices- which is precisely what happened.
Aaaaand you’re not even suspicious enough to bring it up, despite the fact Russia actually HAS an interest in doing this for oil prices. But of course. That would suspect you of analysis. You FEEL this, you don’t care about the slightest logic. It FEELS like…well, like it always does: like the US is on the wrong side of something! And so you find out it is! So your response is to stick your hand in the cliche’ basket and come up with “lighten up?” Why not “Keep on Truckin'” or “You deserve a break today?”
And Iraqi oil didn’t go to American corporations, they went on the market, where France’s Fina/Elf now has more contracts than Exxon/Mobile. Also, the oil companies pressured the government not to go into Iraq. So, the fact that we didn’t actually get the oil completely invalidates your thesis.
So, to recap- everything you think is wrong and a child could see it and if anyone listened to you on any political subject they would increase the proportion of screaming misery on this planet by an order of magnitude.
Now, you are COMMANDED to be flippant. Do it, Mark. Do it. DO IT. I didn’t ask you, I told you to be flippant and not address anything I say. Anyway it suits you because if you hadn’t been shown how by mom, you’d never figure out doorknobs. You will obey. C’mon, admit defeat by tossing off some remark which gets us off the subject. Admit that defeat, baby. Admit it!
LikeLike
Your Neumann doesn’t know the first thing about the conflict- the Russians started this. Do some reading, if it’s not too hard:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php
LikeLike
Jim – you’ve got a Versluy kind of feel about you, but I’ll not be flippant until the end.
I don’t much rely on American sources for my news about international events, but do like the BBC. Try this:
From other sources I know that Americans are in Georgia, have trained Georgian troops, and that McCain lobbyist-aide Randy Scheunemann has a $800,000 contract to lobby on behalf of Georgia. That’s not proof, just evidence. Strong evidence.
Why do I believe the Russians and not the Americans? Because Americans lie, all the time, about everything. Do Russians lie? Of course – to their own people. That’s standard practice. Do they lie on the world stage? Of course. But this time circumstances tend to make me believe that they are telling the truth. I do know that Georgia struck first.
Did Russia overreact? Catch the US off guard? Did it blow up in Cheney’s face? Did Russia seize the opportunity to do what it has wanted to do anyway? Is the U.S. helpless to do anything now except carp and whine and tell its camp followers that Russia is a bad dude?
On Iraq, oil played a large part in the decision to attack, though it was not the only factor. It’s not about our own use of oil, but rather control of oil – it’s geopolitics.
Further, the US has been after Iraq to sign production sharing agreements over development of Iraq’s untapped reserves, turning these prospects over to the Americans. In fact, it is one of the 18 planks that Bush set up as evidence that Iraq was ready to manage its own affairs – it had to give up control of its oil.
Did I answer all your accusations? Now to the flip part: You’re kind of a dick.
LikeLike
Oh shit, I didn’t mean to make things unclear- yeah, that was me. But I like the Chief Wiggum aspect, so that’s my new handle.
I also point out- that wasn’t an American source. It was someone who was (ahem), actually there. Speaking to other (ahem) actual experts who know the area.
LikeLike
And, of course, a person there would by definition have no prejudices, preconceived notions or agendas. That’s a given. I always trust actual experts when they agree with me too.
LikeLike
Ok, on to business- yes there were Americans in the area….as every piece written on Georgia the past three years have noted, we’ve been training their military for the past two years and reorganizing their forces from the battalion to the division level*. There were forces sent by Congress in a bipartisan bill! This requires American people!
See what I mean about your politics (it the politics of Chomsky and that hilarious fella you use to bore on about propaganda) being the restatement of the obvious in terms of the fantast. You know, I can read
Now, you had a perfect chance to prove your line on the US and USSR here with Russia- you could be JUST AS SKEPTICAL OF THE RUSSIANS INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTING AS YOU ARE OF THE USA. But you’re not- their motives (and this really gets to me) don’t even play into your assessment. This tells me you don’t give a shit what’s going on.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH19Ag04.html
I do have a question: I give out so few reading assignments- do you read them? I mean, do you? Nah! It’s the resume’ for your side, not the argument- that’s why you can’t think. Because you never argue, you just talk about WHO is saying it.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH13Ag01.html
Read these two. If you can stay this pig ignorant afterwards, then I’ll take you seriously…mainly because you’ve done some serious mental ju-jitsu.
*- I did a piece on it a year back tracing the politics of the Baku/Siberian oil pipeline to the Georgian one.
LikeLike
Chomsky’s left the building – haven’t you noticed? How am I ever going to survive? And that hilarious fella you’re talking about had a few salient points – one that those most susceptible to propaganda were those who thought themselves immune, another that the intelligentsia were susceptible because they literally need propaganda to live – it’s your lunchtime borscht. You live and breath it and think it is beneath you all at once.
So I haven’t written much about this Georgian thing – have I? I think I commented elsewhere on blogs you don’t read – did I put up anything here? And what I’ve said is this – the Russians have played this brilliantly. They handed the Georgians their hat – Putin then says that the Georgians were really the Americans, and that makes sense, as that would be the American motif – to act clandestinely. To help a certain presidential candidate? I expect Iran will do the trick there.
Along comes you to hand me the real intellecutal scoop – I donna unnastan how Ruskies are good at chess and Americans aren’t, how they are fighting for survival and their politicians who survive are the smartest ones – yeah, well and good. Kind of an overbearing point, like a blanket to cover the whole thing, the kind of thing that a heavy thinker would intone – it’s the way you do it – “Stand back! I know how to analyze! You don’t.”
Pompous ass.
LikeLike