Any virus will do

Note to readers: I am officially backing away from this post until I have more and better information. There are people of sound mind and good reasoning skills on both sides of the “virus” issue. I have to get up to speed, and it may take weeks or months.


Peter Robinson of the Hoover Institute is someone I enjoy listening to – he does very thoughtful interviews. Previously I linked to him, perhaps just in the comments, regarding mathematical proof that Darwinian evolution is impossible. (Species adapt, but do not become other species – this is all that Darwin discovered).

This interview is with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford, a medical professor. I learned quite a bit, and have my doubts about some of it. It is 35 minutes, and as always, readers are wandering off. I get that. But a few will stay and watch.

Fauci
Fauci

Dr. Anthony Fauci is Director for the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. He’s been at it a long time, which is why I remember him as having played a part in the AIDS hoax. He was lying then, in my view, and I suspect he is lying now when he says

“The flu has a mortality rate of 0.1 percent. This has a mortality rate of 10 times that. That’s the reason I want to emphasize we have to stay ahead of the game in preventing this.”

How do I know that is a lie? Bhattacharya makes it very clear we do not have a database by which we can estimate the morbidity rate of this virus. From a statistical standpoint, the entire population has to be measured to see how many have had it. I have, I suspect, and I know others who have, and if they tested me I would probably turn up positive for antibodies. That is the database against which deaths have to be measured. As they are doing it they are only measuring people known to  be ill, and no surprise, the death rate among those people is, as it is every year with influenza, higher than the general population.

Fauci’s lie then would be meant to spread fear, and as such, is an abuse of power. He should at the very least be fired, and possibly tried for abuse of public trust in his position of authority. Is that a crime? I know, people like him, even when shown to be wrong or caught in a lie, merely move on to new lies and mistakes. They are immune from accountability.

Other questions this interview brings up: Is Italy really suffering more than other places? Why would that be? I can only think of one reason, an aging population, like most of Western Europe. Another is that the news media is simply lying to terrify them. Why do people assume news is accurate and true? As. Dr. Gregory House reminded us, everyone lies. Why would news be an exception? It appears even these two learned men trust news to be true. It’s a logical failing.

Is there a separate and distinct Covid-19 virus? Bhattacharya says yes, and that it is deadly, but I suspect he feels he has to say that. He cannot know, after all, how deadly it is until we have a database and a death rate. Perhaps he means it is deadly for aging people and those with other symptoms. That is very influenza-like. He says the test they administer can distinguish this virus from ordinary influenza, and he has to be taken seriously in this regard, but still, I have my doubts.

Bhattacharya said he is “astounded” by the lock-down, the draconian measures taken to combat this supposed menace.  That’s honest. Peterson is shocked too. But as I have mentioned to others, the destructiveness of the shutdown ties in nicely with Climate Change objectives. Climate change is, after all, misanthropic at its core – too many people, too much wealth generation. We had entered an era of massive improvement of life and living conditions, with China and India coming out of their doldrums. Africa, of course, was being held back. As always.

Climate Alarmism wants an to end all of that. Coronavirus has ended all of that. I kind of think that is the objective, and that any virus would have sufficed. This one, if it even exists, is just useful, but not particularly dangerous, no more so than the annual influenza virus that kills hundreds of thousands of people each year, and due to which never one business had been forced to shut its doors.

70 thoughts on “Any virus will do

  1. Okay, soooo…I listened to the whole interview, and boy I don’t know where to start.

    The Stanford professor, like all doctors, thinks that an antibody test is enough to determine what kind of virus they are looking for and most of all, that THERE IS a virus to be found. This is problem number 1, as all tests are based (and therefore biased) on parameters that researchers themselves determine basing on their very limited knowledge of viruses and how they operate within the body.
    Problem number 2 is that the professor thinks about taking a blood sample out of everyone in the world if I got this correctly, or at least from all people that resulted positive to this bug. No wonder Peter asked him if this “surveillance” would lead to an Orwellian type of world. The guy answered no with a smile but I don’t buy it, as this reminds me of the HIV test back in the day and all the pain people who resulted HIV positive had to go through. A nightmare. Being HIV positive in Italy means that you get a note on your medical records, your GP is informed immediately, you’re given a special card you have to exhibit every time you go to a chemist’s or for a visit, if you need whatever type of surgery you need you’re put in isolation afterwards, and your life is turned upside down completely.
    They are considering this virus or whatever it is like a plague, which is rather disturbing and tells us what the real intentions of the scientific world are. Not good, whatever is the perspective you wanna see this from.
    Problem number 3: Once taken the blood test from all of us and determined we are positive God knows to how many viruses, what is going to happen? Are we getting isolated in special structures where scientists can observe us and study us like guinea pigs, taking blood samples 3 times a day and experimenting new meds on us, and if anyone dies so be it, it was for the sake of mankind’s health after all?

    To me, Peter Robinson’s expressions while the guy was speaking says it all.

    These people are freaking DANGEROUS.

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    1. I said in my post “From a statistical standpoint, the entire population has to be measured to see how many have had it. ” You’d be amazed, statistically, how few people they have to actually test to get a measure of the entire population – maybe a few hundred. When they take a poll to measure how the population is feeling* about this or that issue, they don’t question everyone. Just a few. So these two men are not talking about mass blood samples.

      They key is how representative is the selected sample, and this is what statisticians do – select appropriate random samples. “random” being the key. Back in the days when I voted I would occasionally be part of a sample (well, maybe once, as most of those telephone polls are what they call “push polling,” and not scientific), and they insisted, even calling back a couple of times, that I participate. It was not that they cared what I thought, only that I was part of a demographic that had to be included for the poll to be reliable.

      So stand down, Anna, as I think these are honest men caught in a web of deceit.

      *They don’t care how the population feels about anything, but do want to measure the effectiveness of their propaganda. Public opinion is measured, but is never considered in decision making.

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      1. Reminds me – Johnny Carson or some talk show host would routinely ask his audience if any had been included in a poll … never a one. That meant only that it is rare to be part of a sample, not that polls were lying.

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          1. Okay Mark, as you asked me here’s why:

            If you, like me, believe this pandemic to be a hoax, why do you think that taking blood samples, even just a few hundreds, would make a difference? I believe tests are useless. Was just reading an article from a very brave Italian journalist now retired who’s always been very honest and anti EU and its oligarchs, he said tests in Italy are giving positivity to the bug cos they’re already contaminated…with the bug!
            You see what I mean now?

            But what bug are we talking about here? We don’t even know, that’s the point. You even remarked that yourself giving your post a pertinent title. I think they just want blood samples to be able to say that a few hundred million people are positive to Covid, and then what? What are they going to do with that? Trying vaccines that we all know are toxic and do not provide any immunity if this bug is mutant as scientists worldwide have been stating for over a month now?
            Or worse, injecting patients in ICU’s with the modified plasma and blood of recovered patients as it seems they’re currently doing in northern Italy? We’ll see what happens next, if those guys live or die. Cos if they’re not sick with any bug I have no idea what being injected with someone else’s blood implies, and if they are sick with any other virus, again I have no idea whatsoever what’s gonna happen to their immune system.

            And like Fauxlex I would like to ask you when do these “honest men caught in a web of deceit” stop being honest, as it looks to me like we are living in a world where honest men and not, but both caught in a web of deceit, are the same ones that laugh at our assertions here and if they could, would throw us into a padded room with a straight jacket on.

            Liked by 1 person

            1. The pandemic is not a hoax. We have one every year, some worse than others. In the 2017-2018 flu season, according to CDC, 45 million Americans got the bug, 810,000 were hospitalized, and 61,000 died. Just in the US. This flu season seems milder, as the virus was reclassified by the British health service as not one of great concern, since it produces a very low death rate.

              The hoax is to hype the virus and stampede the public. Bhattacharya talks about that in the video, how that will be much more costly in terms of human lives than any virus. There is an ulterior motive behind it – there must be – as the virus is mild, say the Brits. I can only go by what I see, a deliberately induced financial meltdown.

              Bhattacharya also talks about injecting patients with plasma from those recovered from the virus, and says it is experimental and that he has only read of five cases, so that he cannot say if it will be widely done. Are you sure you watched the video?

              I don’t know when people caught in a web of deceit become dishonest themselves. We humans are expert and practiced liars, and are best when lying to ourselves.

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              1. Mark, hope this doesn’t come across as obnoxious, but… why should we believe what the CDC says about anything, including the number of infections and flu deaths from 2017-18 that you cite? Even before the current madness, I wondered if flu deaths were inflated to justify all the flu vaccines that were heavily promoted and available all over the place, even though they were and are obviously ineffectual. The flu is a real thing–I’ve had it, I know people who have had it, and I’m sure people with other health problems die from it. But it makes my head spin to read the CDC’s information cited as a reliable source even as we acknowledge its obvious role in this Orwellian power grab.

                I respect Maarten’s frustration with those of us who have zero knowledge about medical matters spouting off about this. I understand the need to defer to people and institutions that have knowledge and experience on a subject that I don’t have. Questioning everything the CDC has ever said about everything seems nuts. On the other hand, when someone blatantly lies to your face over and over, it’s hard NOT to question everything he’s ever said to you in the past.

                This isn’t a point I’m inclined to argue to much about though, because it leads down a path of total madness. In times like these, it’s better to be happy and sane than right.

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                1. Not obnoxious at all. I had the same thoughts as I wrote the words, that CDC is often at the forefront of misinformation, HIV and ZIKA and HPV, for instance. it comes down to taking what is good, leaving the rest. I have read one other work (the abstract of) a scientific paper quantifying annual deaths worldwide from influenza the past three years at 389,000 each year, that number a statistical midpoint though it did not state the confidence interval.

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        1. Faux, don’t close the comments on your articles. You made some good points on Mr. Taos, but on the MM page the date is just typed in and changeable to whatever he or they want to change it to. It”s not automatic after a post like on here. Maybe MMC didn’t want April 1st on it, since it’s associated with April Fools day.

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          1. You really think some tack-on paper update would make the author care about the date? That paper is dated at the top “the ides of March”, so I really don’t buy at all that some bias against 4/1 occurred. It was a footnote. Honestly, it just gets too ugly on all sides, and it’s on everyone to believe what you will. My paper is either compelling to you, or it’s not. Otherwise, it will turn into every Mathisite coming out of the woodwork to offer a rationalization. Of course it can be explained away.

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          2. The date system not being automatic on that site is actually a very fundamental part of my argument. Someone very intentionally used 4/2. Date sync on the computer is not a viable explanation. Your rationalization is one that I foresaw, but quite frankly I just do not find it compelling at all. I stand by what I wrote, that the only logical explanation is what I said. This is why I am saying…the post either stands or it doesn’t. Believe what you will.

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          3. Also, Greg, the author of that site has twice posted updates on 4/1 without any hesitation. April Fools has never been a thing that site participates in, and certainly wouldn’t have some hesitation to use that date for a footnote at the bottom of a paper already dated 3/15 at the top.

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            1. I’m just sayin he or they can change the date that update page, it’s not a big clue that something is odd ballish about the MMC. You had some good points and clues in that article and also the one you posted awhile back on MM. You pointed out many clues, but still I don’t think anyone is going to narrow it down and do a big “a ha Gotcha” reveal on the MMC. But if you can we’re all waiting! Sorry for going off topic on this thread.

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              1. Greg, that was the date they used. April 2nd on April 1st. The fact that it can be manually changed is totally irrelevant to my argument. That you dismiss on such grounds is silly.

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              2. It appears that you do not understand the logic of my argument, or are very quick to excuse the discrepancy. You are in fact finding some irrelevant detail (that updates can be made at any time) to dismiss an argument that has absolutely nothing to do with that. Best of luck to you. I am not opening the comments to that article, and whether or not you actually read it and understood it is not something I am concerned about. Good luck.

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              3. To date something is to make reference to the current moment. If you are willing to believe otherwise, you are already hoodwinked. The only rational explanation is that the author of the paper was located in a place where it was already April 2nd.

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  2. Let’s review the numbers.

    Coronavirus, 21,000 deaths.

    Seasonal flu, 113,000.
    Malaria, 228,000.
    Suicide, 249,000.
    Traffic fatalities, 313, almost 314,000 deaths.
    HIV/AIDS, 391,000 deaths.
    Alcohol related deaths, 581,000.
    Smoking-related deaths, 1,162,000.
    Cancer deaths, 1,909,000 deaths.
    Deaths attributed to starvation, 2,382,000 deaths.
    And death by abortion, 9,900,000.

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  3. General theme here is do we trust our government.

    I’m looking past supposed “hoaxes” by our leaders on the severity of this affliction and going to the source. Anybody up for that challenge, like where’s Huang Yan Ling?

    Watch before UTube buries it.

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  4. Medical Marshall Law requires no virus, no doctor(s), no politicians, and most important of all, no individual thought. We are being conditioned, herded like cattle, into the new, “new normal.”

    Some will recall the “conditioned reflex” experiments of B.F. Skinner. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-skinner-box-2795875
    We’re in “box training” like B.F.’s pigeons, or like Pavlov’s dogs. We’re not going back to “normal.” That is certain.

    Isolation combined with cycles of repeating assault by media propaganda is the weapon, not the virus, per se. Call it irregular warfare, call it what you will. One thing is certain, we are the enemy, and we are under attack. We all have choices facing us in the days, weeks, months ahead. Will you do nothing (freeze), will you fight, or will you take flight?

    May I recommend reading Gideon Linchfield’s thoughts on returning to normal from his ivory tower at MIT for a real eye-opener. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing-18-months/

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  5. I’m leaning toward this thing being a hoax as well. However, has anyone gone into some of these hospitals in “hard hit” areas like New York or Georgia and seen whether or not these facilities are swamped with covid positive cases? That should be an easy way to determine hoax or not. Is there a disconnect between the actual state of these hospitals and what the media is portraying? And if so wouldn’t that raise the alarm for said doctors/nurses in said hospitals?

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    1. I have found a lot of information posted from worldwide sources who are reporting virtually empty clinics, medical offices and hospitals. Sure, some may be shills and controlled opposition. To me they overwhelmingly appear to be genuine with some being from Drs, nurses, and clinic staffers. See links below.

      The brighter portion of the general world public seems to have caught on to this much sooner than any other of the many false narratives we have endured. We are not caring, right now, so much who, what, or whether the “virus” is real, weaponized, nonexistent, or some combination of circumstances. We are looking directly into the consequences of these unprecedented quarantine measures and seeing that there is an underlying agenda.

      Still, just in case, we must take all precautions in case the video above, for example, is true or even partially true and there is a deadly virus. We must not be paralyzed with fear like some of my neighbors but just take the normal precautions we always do when dealing with infections. We must never have the hubris to believe we can tell truth from falsehood 100% of the time. The creators of these scenarios (maybe AI) are an intelligence of a different order and the devil must always be given its due. In any case, we have no real choice as we will be policed by our hysterical neighbors if we do not.

      Sources I have looked at from around the world seem to believe the statistics, from what has been the worst flu and cold season in history (2019-20), are being skewed to appear as if there is a one-cause super bug. Also, the test for C-19 is bogus. I don’t want to just throw out statements so know that this information can be easily found. One source is a Swiss Doctor on Covid 19. It is an extensive blog starting March 14 and is updated every single day. It is a fount of information but I cannot find out who this Swiss Doctor is so far so I won’t post a link. I can understand him or her wanting to be anonymous.

      There are at least 20 medical doctors who have come out in opposition to the official narrative. All easily found with good key word searches.

      This story has layers and layers and layers but that is not hiding the truth of our ongoing predicament from hundreds of thousands of citizens of the world. This one is busted far faster and by far more people than, say, 9/11. Sadly, we will not likely reach critical mass. So, this may be the end of freedom as we have known it, even relative freedom, for the 99%. This may be the final psyop event the PTB can get away with and I think they know it.

      I hope I am wrong but, in any case, we will emerge into a new paradigm when they finally let us out of quarantine. They are no doubt feverishly implementing 5G radiation, forced vaccination, travel restrictions, emptying of IRAs, 401 Ks, savings, raising prices and will continue modified isolation and other psychological abuse using some various bogey men they can dust off and parade before our lying eyes.

      I have additional links but I think only 2 can be posted at a time. I will post more if I am permitted to join the discussion.

      LINKS:
      I Went To Various Hospitals, Urgent Care Centers and Emergency Rooms In My Area

      Heroic Citizens Fact-Check the LYING MSM about Corona

      http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?102096-Heroic-Citizens-Fact-Check-the-LYING-MSM-about-Corona

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        1. I just don’t understand how people can disagree with us on this. Seriously. Watch this video people, and tell me a real crisis is happening.

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  6. Anyone who is a first-rate expert in a specialized field of knowledge will tell you this: those who are untrained can say the cutest, darndest things!

    In any field of expertise, there is going to be a spectrum of opinions held by those at the top. They will not agree in lockstep with each other. The ignorant will often construe this variety of opinion as proof that the whole field of inquiry is a sham or corrupt. Yet, when the experts DO agree, the ignorant then construe this “conformity” as evidence of conspiracy. So it’s always lose/lose for those who actually know something. Whereas, the non-experts don’t even know what it is that they don’t know.

    A couple years back, Kevin Starr sent me a video by some idiot that touched on my area of expertise. I wrote him back to say that the man’s ideas were “not even wrong.” By which is meant: what he said was not coherent enough even to be shown true or false.

    It has been amusing to read non-microbiologists, non-epidemiologists, non-statisticians, and non-hospitalists decry the current COVID crisis. They say the darndest things! But this business of doubting the existence of viruses, the existence of viral diseases, the existence of COVID infections, the existence of overwhelmed healthcare workers … it is getting tiresome now. It is not cute anymore.

    Can we talk about something more enlightening?

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    1. If we don’t have good information, what is there to agree or disagree on? Bhattacharya wants to do a statistical sampling of the population to determine what percentage of us have already had the bug. Peterson was astonished that this is not being done, but I think, ordinarily, this is done after the virus has run its course. (We’ve had what … 30 flu pandemics in the last … what … 30 years?)

      Sunetra Gupta, an Oxford theoretical epidemiologist, suggests that half of that island’s population have already experienced the virus, which would have arrived in December and taken hold in January, when I became ill.

      I wish I had your faith in experts. I see that word all over. My snow thrower had a gummed up carburetor, so I took it to Chainsaw Bob, and he fixed it. Chainsaw Bob is one of the true experts I have experienced. The rest have to earn my trust.

      https://news.yahoo.com/oxford-study-suggests-millions-people-221100162.html

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      1. “I wish I had your faith in experts.”

        Yeah, that’s like wishing for a pet unicorn.

        I do not have unconditional faith in experts. But I do know when I don’t know enough about an area of inquiry to adequately assess someone for their expertise. For that matter–how do you know that Chainsaw Bob didn’t just tighten a loose screw you failed to notice, and then charged you $50 for the “repair”?

        My real question is: What evidence would suffice for you to change your mind and accept that there is a health crisis going on right now, and not just a completely fabricated story?

        I suspect that when I say here that I personally know people who have COVID-19, and that I personally know healthcare workers who can testify to their overwhelmed condition, that the result will NOT be to change anyone’s mind. Instead, the conclusion will likely be that I am in on the hoax and have been a lying shill all along.

        So what’s the point of discussing this, when genuine testimony is irrelevant?

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        1. Genuine testimony would be wonderful. Where it becomes challenging is when it contradicts other genuine testimony. I personally know healthcare workers who are skeptical that this is nothing more than flu/pneumonia and in no way justifies the complete shutdown of the world.

          I also think that since we are experiencing something surprising and new, it is worth talking about (even ad naseum) as we are all still scratching our heads trying to understand what is really going on. I welcome any and all new information, anecdotal or not.

          What do you know?

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        2. Evidence for Mark? How about a dry cough?

          Funny you should mention unicorns tho, right after a buddy sent me this quote (author unknown).

          “Almost everybody who has actually studied history at all thinks actual socialism (as opposed to your fluffy magic unicorn version) is evil, while those who have studied history and still want it are wannabe totalitarians and statists who think it sounds awesome, because they assume they’re going to be the ones in charge. Then they sell the fluffy unicorn version of socialism to the useful idiots.
          They tell you it’s social programs and fairness, when actual reality is bread lines, inefficiency, and eventually gulags and firing squads.”

          The majority here mostly blame the American system of massive coverups, hoaxes, yellow journalism and fear mongering in hopes of changing us into some utopian commune. They ignore the transgressions of other countries, namely China, who are the ones responsible in the first place.

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          1. I do not know why your comments are going to moderation. I am not doing it. You’re not on any list.

            This is the second time you’ve done the “author unknown” routine. I don’t care, as I have to judge statements by content rather than source, but I wonder if you are embarrassed if you name the source of the quote.

            You’ve been thinking the same way for as long as I’ve known you. I am guessing you were deeply brainwashed during the Cold War, as I was. it is very hard to overcome that brainwashing, as it was fear based and meant to last your entire life. I broke free due to unusual circumstances, and consider myself fortunate to have done so. I very easily could have lived out my life in that trap.

            I don’t consider any economic system perfect, and see most countries to have a mix of free markets (usually the poorest citizens are stuck in that mode as they have no protection from markets, which can be brutal), most having government-run health care systems that work better than ours. Wise leaders are often pragmatic about solving problems.

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          2. Just one thing, Swede, the global system of finance, commerce, social order and a whole lot more is, and has been for a very, very long time, hierarchical. The top of the power pyramid is not “the American system” or China — both are corporations managing large landmasses and slaves (property) posing as state governments that care about their respective people. Giant unicorns in the mind of the masses. You are quick to judge others you neither know, nor have you ever even met — a true believer in the red, white and blue.

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            1. If you wondering about first hand information or ” judgements” please refer to the video in my first comment in this thread.

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            2. Believe in the red flag.

              A Chinese student who called for Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leader Xi Jinping to step down in a message posted to social media on Monday has gone missing. On Tuesday, reports suggested he was in police custody for his remarks.

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        3. But like, seriously Maarten?

          Look, the overwhelming conditions of hospitals in my country are due to NHS’ reiterated cut downs over the years by corrupt politicians plus media’s criminal attitude in the last couple of months. People are terrified by the “experts”. Ergo, hospital are overflowing. Had media and the government kept a low profile, there would be no hospital crisis, that’s for sure.

          And since experts are to be listened to, how do you explain that different scientist of the same area of expertise, who studied on the same books and researched the same stuff have come to totally different conclusions about this pandemic?

          So, who’s to be believed and who’s not in your opinion?

          Liked by 1 person

          1. I guess what I meant to say is that when the word “expert” is used in news broadcasts, it is done to encourage viewers to believe in the person and his words. This sort of confidence game usually precedes a lie.

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            1. Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance were pedestalised in this fashion before appearing with Boris on TV a couple of weeks ago to peddle the “herd immunity” lie which was deliberately calculated to manipulate the public into demanding for their own incarceration. It worked a treat. They kept using the word “science” while presenting absolutely no science or references or anything.

              Vallance looked visibly uncomfortable in his own skin, and his body language served to inform us that everything coming out of his mouth was complete manure. It elicited enough contempt in me to look up his Wiki page, and lo and behold: apart from having been a vaccine peddler at GSK, he is a Fellow of the Royal Society, which, if you excuse the MMism, is a huge red flag. Notable members of this group include Peter Maitlis, father of Emily Maitlis, the BBC TV presenter who handled the recent Prince Andrew “scandal”.

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        4. One doesn’t have to be a scientist to know that this is a total conjob. Have you read that MIT link about this being a new normal? There is just no way such measures can be rationalized. It’s just a pure authoritarian wet dream, with public health as the fig leaf. Even IF it were true, it would be better to let the virus run rampant, than to wreck and constrain so many lives forever after.

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          1. TIMR,
            Since the article interested you, here’s a long video with a lot of the dots connected in a way that, to me at least, seems to be “spot on.”

            Enough scoping out the veins in the “fig leaf.” Tough crown these days. Moving on.

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        5. Maarten, Chainsaw Bob charged me $120, and I knew what the problem was, as the snow thrower was our son’s and had sat unused for a year, so that ethanol had gummed up the carburetor. I don’t know how to clean them but know that spraying stuff on them does not work, so Chainsaw Bob was my guy. (Son thinks I fixed it, as I didn’t pass along the cost, so don’t tell him. Let him think I am an expert.)

          I think this is a real pandemic. Here is Dr. Joel Kettner, professor of Community Health Sciences and Surgery at Manitoba University, former Chief Public Health Officer for Manitoba province and Medical Director of the International Centre for Infectious Diseases. I know nothing about the guy. Here’s what he said:

          I have never seen anything like this, anything anywhere near like this. I’m not talking about the pandemic, because I’ve seen 30 of them, one every year. It is called influenza. And other respiratory illness viruses, we don’t always know what they are. But I’ve never seen this reaction, and I’m trying to understand why. … I worry about the message to the public, about the fear of coming into contact with people, being in the same space as people, shaking their hands, having meetings with people. I worry about many, many consequences related to that. … In Hubei, in the province of Hubei, where there has been the most cases and deaths by far, the actual number of cases reported is 1 per 1000 people and the actual rate of deaths reported is 1 per 20,000. So maybe that would help to put things into perspective.

          I am an expert at nothing anymore, but do not rely on people just because someone says they are an expert. I do not rely on small samples of evidence. I want to know the big stuff, like when the virus arrived, if it is a new strain, how many people are infected, how severe are the symptoms, how many people die, and the relationship between age, other conditions, and death.

          No one offers that information in a fashion that I find reliable, you know, the folks who gave us Sum Ting Wong/Wi tu Lo/Ho Lee Fuc/Bang Ding Ow. Experts who speak on the news. I don’t want expert views. I want the facts. And they are not available, and I wonder why.

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          1. THIS is the bottom line that I think we have been driving at from the beginning. Granted, we have taken many angles at it. At times, things seemed so fraudulent that it’d make just as much sense that there were no virus. But the MAIN position has been that the fatality rate was exaggerated by likely hundreds or even thousands of times! This is a common cold bug. How many times did we say that? Honest scientists will find that it’s true. There is no need to be doing these horrible draconian things and destroying the economy. It’s a COLD, people. A COLD. Stop this insanity and stop justifying it in any way. I don’t care if there really is some crowded hospital somewhere. THIS IS NOT OKAY. We should be outright rebelling. This is a horrible wrong being inflicted upon us.

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          1. Thank you Michael. i was a little put off by the name, Andy Kaufman, but still sat through it. He introduces new levels of intrigue, in my opinion, primarily a test known not be reliable to find a “virus” that doesn’t exist but does in fact fit known parameters for something known to exist in the body already. It is a formula for a scam.

            Buyer beware, as always, but at least he is calming the herd. What I have gathered is that this illness is not particularly threatening, no more than a head cold. Everything that is terrifying the public is produced by news and public reinforcement, six feet, people wearing masks, hoarding … things that news can easily manufacture. We are in no danger, and I have known this from the beginning, intuitively, perhaps because I do not watch news.

            I am thinking of running this as a headline in the morning. Thank you for bringing it to us.

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        6. MR: It’s rare… but I am with you on this one. MT, Faux et some others will look very stoopid a few months from now. They started claiming the virus did not exist and that all was made out of thin air. I have not clearly expressed my viewpoints so they could understand but I guess it is OK since even exposing them clearly they would still not change… and I am so fine with that.

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          1. To be clear, my main point has always been that the reaction is indefensible. Whether that is because the virus was totally fake or whether it was because the virus was incredibly weak has been very unclear at the beginning. Ultimately, my position will be shown to have been completely right. From the beginning, I have been telling people that the fatality rates are hugely overstated. Events have played out very much in line with my views on this matter. I recommend you stop crying that I am not a mm fanboy such as yourself. Your potshots are silly, and you have persistently been seen as a foolish troll here. At least I have taken a firm stance, totally against the mainstream, and mainly found to have been right. You go on whining, undermining, splitting hairs, and being an annoyance. I’ll gladly defend my position against yours. You are not worthy of anyone’s time.

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        7. Maarten, do you consider each annual cold and flu season to be a healthcare crisis? I don’t. That does not mean that I doubt that people are getting sick. You have wrongly painted us as just flat deniers of this situation. I do not think it is fair, the way you have done this throughout nearly all the comments in this thread. I realize that some people are getting sick. Of course I do. Mark does. No question. We are asking WHAT is making them sick, and we are pointing out the criminally indefensible position that those in power have taken to react to his situation. You cannot just say that we either think it’s real (implication there being that the public response is acceptable) or else we think it’s totally fake.

          I think I speak for a ton of people out there when I say that I DO believe people are getting sick, but I also believe that the quarantines and lockdowns are criminally indefensible, and that the grossly overstated fatality rates are also criminally indefensible. We are being lied to here, and your position is precariously close to justifying this indefensible public response that has wrecked our economy and forced people to lock themselves up in their own homes.

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    2. Maarten, I really just do not see reality backing you up here. Start a panic like this and yeah, a lot of people are going to freak out in small pockets and rush to the ER. How can you not see this con? I’m not saying the virus doesn’t exist, I’m saying it’s a common cold bug. Half the damn population likely already had it. It’s not so fatal that any of this quarantine is justifiable. That’s HUGE. This is a 9/11 level event. How can you not be on our side here?

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      1. Re: “How can you not be on our side here?”

        But then from higher up:
        “Granted, we have taken many angles at it.”

        That’s how I can be not on your side in this matter … because your side keeps changing. “There are no such things as viruses …. Viruses exist but do not cause disease … viruses cause only minor discomforts like the common cold … ”

        For most people, dental work is no problem whatsoever. But for a few, prophylactic antibiotics are recommended before each checkup. Why? Because what is innocuous for most can be disastrous for some. Isn’t just possible that COVID-19 will cause a common cold in most, but severe symptoms in a few? Or must I absolutely, dogmatically doubt that an uncle of ours is in the hospital now for this hoax disease? (Despite there being no earthly reason for him to fake a costly illness.)

        Lately around here we slide too readily into the “everything is completely fake” mode. We got that from some shills that we let hang around too long. “No one died on 9/11!” “No Jews died in WWII!” “Wars were never fought!” This is a troll agenda. No room is left for a position intermediate between “It’s all a lie!!!” and “It’s completely true!!!” The trolls have succeeded in their aim, for they have made rational discourse impossible. All that is left is the Bushian dichotomy, “You are either with us, or you are with the hoaxers.”

        But for most questions, I find myself in that intermediate position. Things happen, but get exaggerated in the telling. Many of my opinions I hold only provisionally, remaining open to evidence that might shift my thinking. That means I might not always stand by the side of allies. No apologies.

        I rarely accept the mainstream media as anything other than propaganda or sensationalism: it exists either to sell ad-time or to inflame passions and darken minds. It is herd management.

        BUT … I rarely accept the “alternative” media either. These “impromptu reporters” making cellphone videos around the country … who exactly are they? … how did they find each other in order to share their tapings? … why is the format of each video so similar? … how do they even get that close to the doors of hospitals, when I (who have a hospital pass) am currently not allowed inside ? … This smells fishy to me.

        Most hospitals and clinics have now limited their points of ingress and egress. All of the action is funneled to one set of doors. But … if you manage to get around to another entrance not currently in use, well, yes, you could make it look like the hospital is abandoned. You could do that at a back entrance to a football stadium during the Super Bowl. What does it really prove? That the game is fake? CGI? Holograms?

        It is wise to be skeptical of the official narrative on things, and especially on the pandemic. But keep consistent in your skepticism. The disinformation comes from all sides in every one of these matters.

        The official story on 9/11, for example, is nearly all bullshit. The only truth is that those tall buildings came down that day. At first, a site like Cluesforum seems like real grassroots efforts for truth. Until you scratch the surface and come to understand that they are also deceiving, just in a different direction. Likewise for the MMC. Likewise for just about everything in the Trutherverse.

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        1. “But for most questions, I find myself in that intermediate position. Things happen, but get exaggerated in the telling. Many of my opinions I hold only provisionally, remaining open to evidence that might shift my thinking. That means I might not always stand by the side of allies. No apologies.”

          = WISDOM

          That’s where I find myself sitting more often than not. I honestly don’t know what is going on, but I remain skeptical at the present moment in time as I wait for more evidence to move me one direction or the other.

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          1. What I am concerned about is that Maarten seems to be saying that PoM is firmly on a side. This could not be a less accurate characterization. We might be saying that the mainstream line is 100% false, but we have not specifically said that we know exactly what is happening. He also indicates “keep consistent in your skepticism”, which I find to be the opposite of wisdom in this particular area (alternative research). Being consistent in your skepticism is how you end up on an island by yourself, believing only what you want to believe, instead of actually following the evidence even if you do not like where it leads.

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        2. MR: Fine comment. I wish I could write with such rigor and polished style. It means nothing, but I hold your same position here. I really wish you had time to sit down and produce the write-up you talked about 3 yrs or so about a future (back then) epidemic or why you foresaw such an event.

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        3. I am sorry, but I find your foundation here to be silly. You are basically saying that if we did not take a single position and stick with it from start to finish, then you cannot take our side. That is absurd. I also think you greatly exaggerate how far we ever went with the “there is no virus” line. While I agree that “everything is fake” is a dangerous way to approach things, I do not think it is fair for you to categorize the approach that Mark or I have taken to be something along these lines. That is a very unfair way to categorize the approach we have taken with this situation as it has evolved. Right now (as of April 3rd), we are very, very far from anything even adjacent to that position. Our basic line has been that the situation is being greatly overblown by TPTB, and that we are being lied to about the fundamentals…most specifically the fatality rate. If you disagree with that, I am very concerned with where your head is at on this one.

          I also do not follow your logic at all with “keep consistent in your skepticism”. That line just does not make any sense to me, and it implies that from day one we would have had a strong sense of what was happening. We haven’t. We didn’t. We have had to roll with the punches of daily developments. At times, things have seemed so silly and out of sync with reality that we asked some fundamental questions about whether viral illness could even be trusted. I stand by the need to questions things that deeply. I just do not see how “keep consistent in your skepticism” makes any sense whatsoever, and you know I respect your positions very much. It just deeply goes against how I approach trying to understand lies such as these. My skepticism is universal, and I take it where it needs to go. It being consistent is irrelevant to me.

          You categorized quite a few things here in a way that I do not feel is fair, whether it is the approach our site has taken (we never really pushed “everything is fake” here) or the idea that we cannot trust the empty hospital videos (do you really think those videos are not genuine?).

          You literally quote me above saying that we have taken many different angles. Yes, and? Of course we have taken many approaches, analysed them all, and stuck with the ones we have felt were compelling. This is not a bad approach. When reality is so deeply out of whack with what we are being told, it is NOT wrong to question things at the deepest levels (as we did, linking to Stefan Lanka). We have not been driving a “there is no virus” narrative. We have made resources available to people for all the different lines of thought, but fundamentally all we have really said is “this is completely overblown, and the virus is not as fatal as they say it is”.

          I do not think your categorization of those hospital videos is fair. Sure, you could make those kinds of manipulations…but I do not see any reason to believe that is what we are seeing in those videos. Watch them again. I do not get your position that we cannot take these videos as meaningful. They are extremely meaningful. As are the media manipulations.

          All that I personally have driven at from the start is that the fatality rate of this virus has been criminally overstated, and that this quarantine/shutdown is a dramatic overreaction. Do you disagree with even that? That is what I am worried about. Besides your thinking that this is some kind of bio-weapon, you have me worried that you are siding with the mainstream on this one.

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        4. And nobody is saying or has said that someone you know is faking this illness. Do you seriously think that I am suggesting your uncle is faking? Again, I am not OK with some of the ways you have categorized what our position is on this. You seem to “not be able to agree” with a position that I think you have wrongly classified to yourself. I personally have only ever driven at the idea that the BROADER story is fake, and that the risks do not match the measures being taken.

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          1. “Keep consistent in your skepticism” sounds to me like we are asked to be narrow minded to make sure we don’t lose credibility in Maarten’s and other readers’ eyes.

            We’ll, I don’t care about being credible, I do care a lot though about trying to understand what’s going on because the only thing that’s real so far, is that we’re all locked in without our consent and without decent information as to why this is happening.

            For me, anything in between has far more than 50 shades of grey, red, and black.

            Liked by 1 person

            1. There are people out there who will say that we should keep silent on calling things lies unless we know exactly what is the truth. I do not agree. There is value in point out lies without yet having a consistent understanding of the truth. In so many ways, the truth is kept hidden from us to a dizzying degree. If we kept silent unless we had a consistent view of the truth, we would all always be silent. The whole purpose of this site is to be able to point to the lies. I do not know what IS exactly happening, but I can say with no hesitation or doubt that what we are being told is NOT what is actually happening. This shutdown is not justifiable.

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  7. Once someone is identified as an “expert,” he or she is ipso facto to be distrusted?
    Ergo, trust only the incognoscenti?
    There’s no in-between?
    If you don’t doubt abso-fuckin’-lutely everything—even the testimony of people you know and trust—even what you see with your own eyes—then you are a gullible bumpkin?

    The Kinks were right …

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I’d say in news casting, yes. Automatically distrust. That’s what vigilant citizens are supposed to do, right? The reason they call them “experts” is to get people to lower their guard so they can pass along false or misleading information.

      In real life, I’ve known many people, and many of them are/were highly educated and very talented people. Dana Carvey, the comedian, said that in Hollywood the really talented people are also the nicest. Something similar applies to people of high accomplishment, that they are usually modest and don’t hit you up front with their credentials. There are experts in this world, however. Don’t misinterpret me.

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  8. By the way, here are some fields populated by “experts” that have been not just wrong, but head-up-ass wrong about they very science that they claim to bring us:

    Cosmologists (the supposed moon landing)
    Virologists (HIV may be real, but exists part from AIDS, HPV exists in half the population and appears to be a harmless passenger)
    Nutritionists (calories in calories out is a recipe for obesity)
    Darwinian biologists cannot show that any species ever became another, but insist this is how we came to be.
    Geology … cannot account for apparent trauma to the planet unless by saying it happened slowly and a very very very long time ago.

    The major problem in all of this is the power of groupthink, and the fact that most students never become smarter than their teachers.

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  9. Our main two positions on this have been that the fatality rates have been crazily overstated, and that this is just a common cold virus among many. I still believe that as time passes, reality is supporting us on both counts. Sure, there has been a lot of talk about whether this could be completely fraudulent or whether viruses even cause illness. Things have been so insane and unjustifiable that I think we were not wrong to consider those topics. But our main bottom line arguments (it’s just a mild cold!!!)…that has held firm and gained more support and evidence by the day! I am proud to have stated his position and held to it here. Reality supports this view.

    Stop justifying the fear. Stop justifying the quarantine. These policies are totally insane when paired with the actual risk to each individual.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. For everyone and in response to no one: Fauxlex and I are working together on a piece that will answer many of these questions. It should appear tomorrow. We have come a long, long way from the Wuhan Fish market.

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