The logic of the fascist is not hard to follow – just think duplicity and lies. Whether it is American justification for current attacks on the rest of civilization or Germany’s cry in 1939 that it was merely defending itself from Poland, it is always easily disassembled and transparent lies. That’s all we get. The shame is that people so easily buy them. But extreme gullibility appears to be the human condition, and it appears incurable.
In most places, that is. Spain has enjoyed a very good public health care system in the post-war era. Currently it spends less than half per capita than the US and achieves better outcomes – full coverage for all citizens and a longer life expectancy.
The bank-generated housing and debt crisis has hit Spain hard, and of course the fascist response is automatic: Attack the public sector, privatize, privatize, privatize. The Spanish government, to “save money,” wants to take its health care system private. Since statistics easily indicate that public systems are far more economical, efficient and effective than our private system here in the US, money cannot possibly be saved in privatization.
There is only one possible outcome here: Less service, higher cost, poorer outcomes, private profit. Spanish people are up in arms. Imposition of a private system, if the US is an example, is unaffordable. But in true fascist tradition, it will be done by force.
__________
PS: This is nothing more than Naomi Klein’s aptly-worded “Shock Doctrine:” To create a problem and then step in with predetermined “solutions.”
Piece of Mindful 
” Since statistics easily indicate that public systems are far more economical, efficient and effective than our private system here in the US, money cannot possibly be saved in privatization.”
Statistics often fail to document wait times. Getting a MRI in England or Spain for that matter can take several months. And what savings? Turns out if you want to be scanned or scanned on a timely basis you pull out the debit card and pay extra.
MRI’s in England 1200 vs 600 in Spain vs 300 in Norway. No wonder countries are dumping health care when you consider if you live anywhere in the Europe you can jump on a plane or train and save hundreds and precious time.
Free market or freedom to travel to travel, rules.
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Getting a MRI in England or Spain for that matter can take several months.
No point in arguing with you, but that is not true in a meaningful sense. I had to wait a couple of weeks here for an MRI, non-critical, just like there. It’s merely triage, which exists everywhere including here.
We’ve been through this before. You simply don’t know what you are talking about and are repeating memes put out by talk radio or other sources you consider authoritative. You have never put up any actual evidence.
Evidence would be impartial surveys, including satisfaction surveys by clients of various health care systems. Further, they are not all alike by any means , but others have three things in common: Universal coverage, better outcomes, and far less cost.
Don’t you dare come back here with a non-evidential link. I’ll trash it faster than you can say “talk radio.”
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Canadian wait times, which by the way continue to get worse.
Click to access waiting-your-turn-2011.pdf
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For elective procedures. Elective. Read your own evidence, for christ’s sake.
Does anything sink in? Do you have any idea what wait times are here for elective procedures? Do you have any idea what they would be if we had universal care?
Do you know anything at all about Canadian satisfaction with their health care system as opposed to ours? Are you aware that they overwhelmingly don’t want our system? If they get it, it will be imposed on them by force, the fascist way.
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Yeah, I read it.
The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought
medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104
percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.
Specialist physicians surveyed
across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait
time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a
patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the
longest they have ever recorded.
I don’t want our system either. I don’t want to pay for illegals, prisoners, or deadbeats who don’t want to work or are on drugs.
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All right then, let’s try again. You talk about illegals, prisoners, or deadbeats who don’t want to work or are on drugs. You have no sense of proportion in any of these matters. “Illegals” are mostly people here due to NAFTA destroying their ability to make a living at home. They are involved in menial labor, and should be provided care, as should everyone. Prisoners are a larger part of the population here due to the drug war, and should be provided health care, as should everyone. “Deadbeats” are people who make no contribution to the economy, even though able – these are Wall Street Bankers and other rent seekers, investors, trust babies and the like who can afford care on their own but should contribute to a national system anyway. Your idea of a “deadbeat” is hard to define, is it appears to be just people you don’t like, and that appears to be just about everyone.
Dealing with you on a matter like health care is highly frustrating, as you don’t have a mind that can grasp complexity or vastness of scale. So you run out and get one source, a right wing “nonpartisan” my ass Canadian think tank and then bring back numbers only on “elective” care, which you don’t seem to grasp. The questions are efficiency, cost, outcomes and universality, and you don’t seem capable of understanding any of these. You just want to make sure that you don’t pay taxes for anyone else’s benefit, as you seem to almost militia-like in attitude.
Example, 46,000 patients getting treatment in other countries is insignificant, and says nothing about circumstances. Canada has reciprocity agreement with other countries to avoid duplication of high-priced and limited use equipment, and sends people to the US, Sweden and other places for certain treatments. It also says nothing about this constant nonsense about Canadians coming to American border hospitals. I have seen a study on this, only one done, and there is nothing there. They are not coming there.
All of that said, no system is without troubles, and Canada has theirs – nothing compared to ours, but troubles nonetheless. Polls I have seen say that they want a Canadian solution not affecting quality and universality, and don’t want our system.
There. A longer answer than you deserve. Again, go read a book.
Also, let me add, that Ayn Rand used her husband’s Medicare to get treatment for her lung cancer. Turns out she was wrong about smoking and was happy to receive care she could not otherwise afford.
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At least Ann/and/or husband paid into the system.
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I may be over simplifying things here but as long as a system is run efficiently (huge caveat) then I fail to see how a health care service can be run cheaper by a company who’s primary aim is to make profit rather than to deliver healthcare.
Waiting times may be high in Spain & the UK, perhaps the health care systems there are not being run efficiently or simply lack adequate cash. Employing managers who can deliver efficiencies seems a better way forward rather then privatizing healthcare as I fail to see what benefits siphoning money off for share holders brings
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Also consider that waiting times are a function of universal care. I was struck by seeing health care in Italy – neighborhood clinics, triage, no fees (taxpayer funded), no lines, no waiting. Higher up the ladder, if triage indicates care higher up, I cannot say. But outcomes are better, costs less, service universal.
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Could it be that the whole Eurorpean of Sociaslism is failing?
The following are 20 facts about the collapse of Europe that everyone should know…
#1 10 Months: Manufacturing activity in both France and Germany has contracted for 10 months in a row.
#2 11.8 Percent: The unemployment rate in the eurozone has now risen to 11.8 percent – a brand new all-time high.
#3 17 Months: In November, Italy experienced the sharpest decline in retail sales that it had experienced in 17 months.
#4 20 Months: Manufacturing activity in Spain has contracted for 20 months in a row.
#5 20 Percent: It is estimated that bad loans now make up approximately 20 percent of all domestic loans in the Greek banking system at this point.
#6 22 Percent: A whopping 22 percent of the entire population of Ireland lives in jobless households.
#7 26 Percent: The unemployment rate in Greece is now 26 percent. A year ago it was only 18.9 percent.
#8 26.6 Percent: The unemployment rate in Spain has risen to an astounding 26.6 percent.
#9 27.0 Percent: The unemployment rate for workers under the age of 25 in Cyprus. Back in 2008, this number was well below 10 percent.
#10 28 Percent: Sales of French-made vehicles in November were down 28 percent compared to a year earlier.
#11 36 Percent: Today, the poverty rate in Greece is 36 percent. Back in 2009 it was only about 20 percent.
#12 37.1 Percent: The unemployment rate for workers under the age of 25 in Italy – a brand new all-time high.
#13 44 Percent: An astounding 44 percent of the entire population of Bulgaria is facing “severe material deprivation”.
#14 56.5 Percent: The unemployment rate for workers under the age of 25 in Spain – a brand new all-time high.
#15 57.6 Percent: The unemployment rate for workers under the age of 25 in Greece – a brand new all-time high.
#16 60 Percent: Citigroup is projecting that there is a 60 percent probability that Greece will leave the eurozone within the next 12 to 18 months.
#17 70 Percent: It has been reported that some homes in Spain are being sold at a 70% discount from where they were at during the peak of the housing bubble back in 2006. At this point there areapproximately 2 million unsold homes in Spain.
#18 200 Percent: The debt to GDP ratio in Greece is rapidly approaching 200 percent.
#19 1997: According to the Committee of French Automobile Producers, 2012 was the worst year for the French automobile industry since 1997.
#20 2 Million: Back in 2005, the French auto industry produced about 3.5 million vehicles. In 2012, that number dropped to about 2 million vehicles.
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First sentence should have read like this: Could it be that the European system of socialism is failing?
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You are blaming socialism?
Surely you should be blaming capitalism as it is the banks who created this mess in Europe.
But then it isn’t true capitalism either when there is no competition & banks are deemed “Too big to fail”.
Maybe Robber Baronism?
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I blaming governments who are in bed with bankers. Why are u unable to settle your debts with precious metals? Because the money changers and politicians are trading bodily fluids.
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And Milo, you should move to a country w/o capitalism.
Of course they may or may not have electricity to run that computer(made by a large corporation) you’re typing on.
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Swede
LOL
I’d rather move to a country WITH capitalism, if you can name me one? 😉
Ones with finance/military/industrial/media/global interests controlling the state by corrupting the government don’t count.
The USA isn’t a democracy built on capitalism & if you believe this then you are enjoying the circuses too much.
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This is classic Budgeism. Let me paraphrase: The US health care system, which is failing, will eventually succeed. The European system, which is succeeding, will eventually fail. You’ll be proven right about everything far in the future.
By the way, what’s your source for your parrotism? Did Breitbart visit you in a dream?
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I first read it on Zero Hedge but this is where it originated.
http://www.thecomingdepressionblog.com/20-facts-about-the-collapse-of-europe-that-everyone-should-know/
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Please, when you link, say you are linking. Wait, you link too much! At least do what the rest of us do, and take other people’s thoughts and put them in your own words.
I don’t mind your bringing those statistics here, but I don’t think you grasp them very well. Quite the opposite, you are using them for validation without keeping them in context. The 2007-08 collapse was world-wide, and hit some countries, notably Spain and Greece, harder than others. The uniform answer from the European Central Bank, US, IMF and other power centers, is austerity, or punishment of the victims. Social democracy did not cause this problem. Fascists did, excuse me, banksters.
I say that assuming your statistics represent some reality, which neither you nor I know.
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My use of links and quotations serve a two purposes. First I hate to type so if there’s some out there that I agree with with and it relate to the subject I copy it’s content.
But more importantly by linking/pasting I shortcut arguments like “prove it” or “that’s bullshit”.
Now to my point about Europe, socialism and finical ruination. You and others seem to lay the blame and the feet of the bankers. I disagree, while they played a significant role it was the relationship intertwined with governments that sealed there fate. The govts. could have lessen the banks roles by letting them twist in the wind, or forcing them to loan money to people without jobs, deficit spending, and printing money. Our damaged credit rating has to do with actions the administrations take or fail to take.
European countries have a high degree of socialism. Which I and others define as high govt. spending/GDP.
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2011/10/national-government-spending-as.html
The average of the european nations are around and sometimes exceeding 50%. This makes economic recovery more difficult. In boom times these nations hire and promise more, never cutting or downsizing when economies contract. Hence the 20 harbingers of doom above.
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I do not buy a word of this – not your reason for linking or your rationalization for laying the depr/rec/ession at the feet of government. I’ll leave the first alone. You get enough grief on that.
The level of government spending has virtually no impact on economies, as spending is spending. And the type of spending that government does is of higher value – for instance, schools make an excellent long-term contribution to economies, and teachers create far more value than do bankers. Roads, bridges, stimulus, public employment, R&D, espeically of the blue sky type (most done by government), offer far more value to us than casinos, restaurants that pay minimum wage, department stores … etc. I am not saying that these things have no value or that they should be government functions, only that they offer less value than government services.
Austerity, attempts to reduce government spending in times of (at least) recession is insanity, bad economics. Here’s what happens: You reduce government spending, the economy contracts, and government spending is at the same percentage of the economy as before.
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I agree with your last few sentences, reducing GS will indeed harm the economy. Call it tough medicine with some wild side effects but without it you’ll lose the patient.
I’m not optimistic, if half the 20 Harbingers are true the EU is toast.
“The level of government spending has virtually no impact on economies, as spending is spending. And the type of spending that government does is of higher value – for instance, schools make an excellent long-term contribution to economies, and teachers create far more value than do bankers.”
You have seen/read about states and localities that are flat broke mainly because of salaries, HC, and pensions of teachers and public servants.
I’m sure you’ve also seen home schoolers winning spelling and geography bees.
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The meaning of your last sentence is lost on me, though I am sure it speaks of some truism for you, probably that non-self-selected public schools don’t work.
States have been hard hit by bank-caused recession/depression and so of course have less revenue. The answer there is revenue sharing form the federal level as part of stimulus.
This will fry you, as it speaks to hard data, and not opinions or neoclassical economics – your opinions about government spending harming the economy have no evidence to support them. None. You’re like everyone – you want to be right first, second and third. But you are wrong. Spending is spending.
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Mark, I have a busy day with a snow plow so I’ll leave you with this.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2005/03/the-impact-of-government-spending-on-economic-growth
It’s from Heritage so you may never give it a look. I’ll leave for your other readers. Supports what I’ve said and compares us with the EU toward the bottom of the page.
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It’s a pretty shoddy study, as far as I can see. This is much of the problem of the “science” of economics, the inability to focus on one aspect without regard to others. This frees whoever is doing the study to insert their own ideology, which is all Heritage has done. And why not – do you know who pays their bills?
Here’s a catchy phrase: For instance, over-regulated labor markets probably contribute to the high unemployment rates in Europe.
Get that? They have no clue, offer no evidence, but are saying (in code) that Europe should crush its labor unions.
Anyway, two things to consider: One, European households are wealthier than US households, and most importantly, you’re citing a 2005 study, done during a time when the neoclassical economists were telling us that what happened in 2007-08 could not happen,.
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Ok Swede. Now that we know where austerity got europe, what’s your plan?
The moment I got to these lines in your source, I knew that the whole diatribe was suspect:
!) “The economic situation in Europe is far worse than it was a year ago, and it is going to continue to get worse as austerity continues to take a huge toll on the economies of the eurozone.”
Ok, TCD acknowledges the complicity of austerity. But then goes on to say:
2) “But they should be watching, because this is what happens when nations accumulate too much debt. The United States has the biggest debt burden of all, and eventually what is happening over in Spain… is going to happen over here as well”
Ahem… Spain had no debt problem before the finance system collapsed in ’07-08. Spain had a 1-2% budget surplus for the three years ending in 2008.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/government-budget
SO any wingnut that wants to use Spain as a benchmark of debt by which to gauge U.S. economic performance isn’t worthy of quoting. But I guess you like nice big lists.
And again, the main takeaway from TCD’s article is to blame austerity. What’s your solution? MIne more gold?
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Wow Swede
You’ve misquoted your source. Where does it mention ‘Socialism’?
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